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I agree generally with this and have had this argument many times before. A family of 4 making under $200k can live well but is still theoretically paycheck to paycheck on LI. One member loses a job and all bets are off. And with white collar jobs hightailing it out replacing that salary outside of NYC is a real challenge. But it's ok. With mandatory arbitration and the triboro amendment, the cop and teacher union ponzi will keep us all afloat (of course until it becomes economically untenable). They can afford to pay the taxes. They are getting guaranteed raises that are well above CPI, contract or no contract. No incentive to negotiate. The politicians signed away our right to say no for a pocketful of votes.
I don't have a problem with police officers and teachers making $100Ks since that only gives you a middle class lifestyle for LI these days. I see the lack of good private sector paying jobs on LI the real problem. Police and teachers in the SF Bay area make $100ks as well, yet you don't see the people there complaining. Difference is that SF Bay is full of lucrative IT businesses that are thriving. Pretty sure the average salary in the Silicon Valley is $110K, what is the average private sector salary on LI, $50-60K???
I don't have a problem with police officers and teachers making $100Ks since that only gives you a middle class lifestyle for LI these days. I see the lack of good private sector paying jobs on LI the real problem. Police and teachers in the SF Bay area make $100ks as well, yet you don't see the people there complaining. Difference is that SF Bay is full of lucrative IT businesses that are thriving. Pretty sure the average salary in the Silicon Valley is $110K, what is the average private sector salary on LI, $50-60K???
OMG, it is so hard to ignore these posts. Do you ever do any research or just make things up?
1. Cops and teachers make way more the $100k
2. SF is complaining but passed Prop A which raises school taxes a whopping $32/yr.
3. San Fran doesn't really have the high tech, it's Santa Clara county and San Jose. Why? Because a couple of small items were invented there (thanks in part to Stanford University) like the semiconducter, the transistor, the internet (ARAPNET), most computer languages and interfaces.
4. Oh yeah, they STILL pay way less tax than we do. An $800k home in San Fran pays less than $9k. A home in Marin County, one of the richest counties in the universe, pays less in tax than Levittown. San Jose? Less than LI. More home, less tax, higher salaries. Any wonder jobs stay there and don't come here.
5. Oh and funny you say avg Silicon Valley salary is $110k and LI salary is $50-60k (your words), yet both have teachers with avg salary of $70k. Go figure. Same with avg police salaries.
California has it's own sets of messes but Prop 13 has kept property taxes from being one of them.
Try to follow along instead of opening your yap to change feet. I was replying to the post below. Makes sense now? No one cares that YOU DON'T CARE. Keep tro-lo-lolling along. You don't even live here and no one cares that you did for 25 years. Count your graces that we still pay you to suck margaritas in Flahrida and ogle the LI CD forum. Oh and try going back to your original user name. CD T&C and all that, ya know? Dumbazz.
Then why'd you quote me? I'm not the one who said it. Maybe it's you who should try to keep up?
OMG, it is so hard to ignore these posts. Do you ever do any research or just make things up?
1. Cops and teachers make way more the $100k
2. SF is complaining but passed Prop A which raises school taxes a whopping $32/yr.
3. San Fran doesn't really have the high tech, it's Santa Clara county and San Jose. Why? Because a couple of small items were invented there (thanks in part to Stanford University) like the semiconducter, the transistor, the internet (ARAPNET), most computer languages and interfaces.
4. Oh yeah, they STILL pay way less tax than we do. An $800k home in San Fran pays less than $9k. A home in Marin County, one of the richest counties in the universe, pays less in tax than Levittown. San Jose? Less than LI. More home, less tax, higher salaries. Any wonder jobs stay there and don't come here.
5. Oh and funny you say avg Silicon Valley salary is $110k and LI salary is $50-60k (your words), yet both have teachers with avg salary of $70k. Go figure. Same with avg police salaries.
California has it's own sets of messes but Prop 13 has kept property taxes from being one of them.
I wish we had something like prop 13 but the unions here would act like it would bring Armageddon to the schools.
I don't think there is another place that has a tax burden like we do other than north jersey.
OMG, it is so hard to ignore these posts. Do you ever do any research or just make things up?
1. Cops and teachers make way more the $100k
2. SF is complaining but passed Prop A which raises school taxes a whopping $32/yr.
3. San Fran doesn't really have the high tech, it's Santa Clara county and San Jose. Why? Because a couple of small items were invented there (thanks in part to Stanford University) like the semiconducter, the transistor, the internet (ARAPNET), most computer languages and interfaces.
4. Oh yeah, they STILL pay way less tax than we do. An $800k home in San Fran pays less than $9k. A home in Marin County, one of the richest counties in the universe, pays less in tax than Levittown. San Jose? Less than LI. More home, less tax, higher salaries. Any wonder jobs stay there and don't come here.
5. Oh and funny you say avg Silicon Valley salary is $110k and LI salary is $50-60k (your words), yet both have teachers with avg salary of $70k. Go figure. Same with avg police salaries.
California has it's own sets of messes but Prop 13 has kept property taxes from being one of them.
I said 100Ks, or in other words $100K range. Despite the hysteria here, majority of LI police officers are not making $200K+.
I said SF Bay Area, which includes San Jose and Silicon Valley. Sonoma County outside SF also has a few good research tech and contracting industries. Regardless Silicon Valley is one of the top employers in the area, average salaries for workers in 2012 we're between $106K-$130k. I doubt the same can be said for LI private sector salaries. The only real lucrative business in NYC is Wall Street, which has been downsizing for various reasons. While Wall Street soars, Silicon Valley continues to thrive. Yes, public sector workers in the SF Bay Area make high salaries. One of my friends at one time was offered a teaching job there, she said after several years of experience she would be making ~$120k.
People may complain about public sector salaries, but no where to the extent as here. Probably because private sector workers in the SF Bay make just as much (and probably more) than the public sector workers there. I know two people who've been working in the Silicon Valley for several years and they're making some good money (pretty sure one of them is making $200k+ at this point).
I never said taxes in the Bay Area are as high as LI. I've lived in CA, it's a completely different animal than NY when it comes to financial infrastructure, despite that both states are "overtaxed." All I was pointing out is that salaries for public sector workers in the Bay Area and LI are about on par, and both regions have about the same COL.
You mention this all the time. LI has hardly any industry which is why there aren't any well-paid private sector jobs here. Unfortunately, LI geography and physical infrastructure makes it quite prohibitive and unlikeable for businesses to work here. Like I said, the lucrative businesses in NYC are downsizing or have been overrun by yuppie transplants making the market extremely competitive for locals. Therefore, the only stable paying jobs on LI are public sector or healthcare. The COL needs to come down majorly on LI. Once the COL decreases and people can live comfortably on a 5 figure salary here, then you can decrease public sector pay. But as of now, no. What they're making is only puts you in middle class.
Its not the cops fault. The politicians would rather pay OVERTIME to LESS employees rather than HIRE MORE COPS which would reduce salaries!
REMEMBER...they are earning OVERTIME.....that means they are WORKING......WEEKENDS, HOLIDAYS, SUMMERS, hundreds of hours away from their families.
We tried that 'hiring more cops' strategy with Suozzi back in 2004. 5 years later it made things even worse. Nassau needs a new, fair, realistic contract with the PBA before we can consider hiring new officers. Suffolk sold out the new crop of workers to keep the gravy train going for the current high earners. They won't see any real savings for at least 15-20 years, and very likely jeopardized the quality of their police force in the future.
One other thing- plenty of people work weekends, holidays, summers, and spend hundreds of hours away from their families. You think cops are the only ones?? Actually, it's the opposite. Most in the private sector work 5-6 day workweeks where cops have a standard 3 day workweek. So OT for cops is working 5 days a week, not to mention the extraordinary amount of sick, vacation and personal time they get vs. private sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere
I said 100Ks, or in other words $100K range. Despite the hysteria here, majority of LI police officers are not making $200K+.
Actually, you're wrong. The average NCPD salary is $202k after benefits.
Another thing I wanted to mention is you said earlier in the thread that cops don't live in nicer areas like a Garden City; that they live in Lindenhurst and Farmingdale.. another false statement. Most of the cops I know live in nice (to very nice) areas like Massapequa, Kings Park, Garden City, Port Washington -- and usually own nicer than average homes in these areas along with tons of toys and vacations. Are you sure you live on LI (or know people who live here?)...Even NYPD are able to swing nicer than average areas on LI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkingElsewhere
I said SF Bay Area, which includes San Jose and Silicon Valley. Sonoma County outside SF also has a few good research tech and contracting industries. Regardless Silicon Valley is one of the top employers in the area, average salaries for workers in 2012 we're between $106K-$130k. I doubt the same can be said for LI private sector salaries. The only real lucrative business in NYC is Wall Street, which has been downsizing for various reasons. While Wall Street soars, Silicon Valley continues to thrive. Yes, public sector workers in the SF Bay Area make high salaries. One of my friends at one time was offered a teaching job there, she said after several years of experience she would be making ~$120k.
People may complain about public sector salaries, but no where to the extent as here. Probably because private sector workers in the SF Bay make just as much (and probably more) than the public sector workers there. I know two people who've been working in the Silicon Valley for several years and they're making some good money (pretty sure one of them is making $200k+ at this point).
I never said taxes in the Bay Area are as high as LI. I've lived in CA, it's a completely different animal than NY when it comes to financial infrastructure, despite that both states are "overtaxed." All I was pointing out is that salaries for public sector workers in the Bay Area and LI are about on par, and both regions have about the same COL.
Here's the thing I don't get about you. You make some valid points, but somewhere in the mix you throw in these purposefully false or exaggerated facts (like the aforementioned, and how you are struggling for middle class on $210k). I wasn't going to bother replying to your posts because I took it as trolling.
Anyway, I'll pretend youre not trolling and address this. Why do you think people don't complain about similarly high pay in the bay area? The complaints I've seen seem to be more focused on the egregious cases which make the news- like police chiefs retiring with $500k pensions, etc. It's still the same in CA, they complain about high taxes. What's different is how the money is taken as I'll try to explain below:
LI pays much more direct property tax toward services than CALI residents.
California does have a different revenue structure than LI (NY). They get most of their revenue for schools from state income taxes...an insanely progressive tax structure in that regard. OTOH, they also have some of the highest gas and sales tax rates..equally as insane regressive taxes. Cali homeowners fall somewhere in the middle depending on income/consumption, etc.
The thing with LI is we pay for most of the school services and NCPD-SCPD by local district/county level means. Which means the average LI homeowner has a much higher burden to deal with regarding property taxes and overall taxes unless that LI taxpayer is a very high earner (then they would be worse off in Cali).
Quote:
You mention this all the time. LI has hardly any industry which is why there aren't any well-paid private sector jobs here. Unfortunately, LI geography and physical infrastructure makes it quite prohibitive and unlikeable for businesses to work here. Like I said, the lucrative businesses in NYC are downsizing or have been overrun by yuppie transplants making the market extremely competitive for locals. Therefore, the only stable paying jobs on LI are public sector or healthcare. The COL needs to come down majorly on LI. Once the COL decreases and people can live comfortably on a 5 figure salary here, then you can decrease public sector pay. But as of now, no. What they're making is only puts you in middle class.
Now, this is where you've gone off the deep end in your post. The main reason the COL is so high on LI is property taxes and sales taxes are so high. The way to lower those taxes is to rein in public spending so the majority of people can live comfortably on their 5 figure salary. You do realize the average worker on LI earns around $60k-$75k after benefits...yet you have no problem with a $202k average NCPD total salary. Now take a look at what you said and explain how the average LI'er can live comfortably while paying public sector workers 2x to 3x what they earn?? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/causation
I think it's wonderful that the police get paid well, it's about time people who risk their lives to protect ours get rewarded by a leading a comfortable life. Why should some egotistical greedy Wall Street moron who sits behind a desk all day make the most money when it is the police, fire and rescue, and the military who sacrifice holidays, family time, nights and weekends, and their own safety to allow the rest of us to live in good neighborhoods and enjoy a certain quality of life.
We tried that 'hiring more cops' strategy with Suozzi back in 2004. 5 years later it made things even worse. Nassau needs a new, fair, realistic contract with the PBA before we can consider hiring new officers. Suffolk sold out the new crop of workers to keep the gravy train going for the current high earners. They won't see any real savings for at least 15-20 years, and very likely jeopardized the quality of their police force in the future.
One other thing- plenty of people work weekends, holidays, summers, and spend hundreds of hours away from their families. You think cops are the only ones?? Actually, it's the opposite. Most in the private sector work 5-6 day workweeks where cops have a standard 3 day workweek. So OT for cops is working 5 days a week, not to mention the extraordinary amount of sick, vacation and personal time they get vs. private sector.
Actually, you're wrong. The average NCPD salary is $202k after benefits.
Another thing I wanted to mention is you said earlier in the thread that cops don't live in nicer areas like a Garden City; that they live in Lindenhurst and Farmingdale.. another false statement. Most of the cops I know live in nice (to very nice) areas like Massapequa, Kings Park, Garden City, Port Washington -- and usually own nicer than average homes in these areas along with tons of toys and vacations. Are you sure you live on LI (or know people who live here?)...Even NYPD are able to swing nicer than average areas on LI.
Here's the thing I don't get about you. You make some valid points but, somewhere in the mix you throw in these purposefully false or exaggerated facts (like the aforementioned, and how you are struggling for middle class on $210k). I wasn't going to bother replying to your posts because I took it as trolling.
Anyway, I'll pretend youre not trolling and address this. Why do you think people don't complain about similarly high pay in the bay area? The complaints I've seen seem to be more focused on the egregious cases which make the news- like police chiefs retiring with $500k pensions, etc. It's still the same in CA, they complain about high taxes. What's different is how the money is taken as I'll try to explain below:
LI pays much more direct property tax toward services than CALI residents.
California does have a different revenue structure than LI (NY). They get most of their revenue for schools from state income taxes...an insanely progressive tax structure in that regard. OTOH, they also have some of the highest gas and sales tax rates..equally as insane regressive taxes. The thing with LI is we pay for most of the school services and NCPD/SCPD by local district/county level means. Which means the average LI homeowner has a much higher burden to deal with regarding property taxes and overall taxes unless that LI taxpayer is a very high earner (then they would be worse off in Cali).
Now, this is where you've gone off the deep end in your post. The main reason the COL is so high on LI is property taxes and sales taxes are so high. The way to lower those taxes is to rein in public spending so the majority of people can live comfortably on their 5 figure salary. You do realize the average worker on LI earns around $60k-$75k after benefits...yet you have no problem with a $202k average NCPD total salary. Now take a look at what you said and explain how the average LI'er can live comfortably while paying public sector workers 2x to 3x what they earn??
When cops, nurses, doctors, etc. work 3 days a week they're working at least 12 hour shifts, not standard 8 hour shifts if you worked 5 days a week. You're right that many of private sector workers also weekends and OT depending what field they're in. But nights, holidays? Come on, what private sector industry on LI works nights and holidays except for hospitals and some retail. It's not like most of our private sector workers are employed by Google or large biotech companies where working nights and some holidays are required.
I don't have a problem paying police officers six figures, especially for a high COL area (I even think the police in Jackson, MS deserve that salary as well). Law enforcement workers and healthcare providers deal with crisis on a regular basis.
The bold, I disagree. I'm not denying that taxes are high on LI which contribute to the COL, but I don't believe it's the main reason why COL is so high. As for sales tax, that's got be a joke. NY actually has pretty reasonable sales taxes, and often sunbelt states have higher sales taxes. For many, housing is the biggest contributor to the high COL. $700k for a modest house with only 1 bath in Port Washington is crazy. I'm sure as heck not paying $530k for a 3 bedroom house in Wantagh. I mean yeah, I can sure find something for not too shabby $400k on LI but then we probably have to spend at least another $20k for renovations and expansion for our children. Utilities are *insane* on LI. Insurance and groceries are also way higher than average. Gas price are amongst the highest in downstate NY, I think only CA and HI have higher gas prices. In contrast, utilities are super low in CA (mostly because the weather is so mild you hardly ever need heat or AC) and fresh produce is cheaper. Housing is also generally newer and more spacious, $750k in Los Angeles County or Somona County will get you something much nicer than $750k in Nassau County IMO. Lastly as I said, CA has much better opportunities in the private sector than LI. NY state largest employer is government, even in NYC.
I'm sure there are people that are genuinely happy with living on LI that are only taking home 5 figures, but then how much are they able to save for their children and other personal expenses? Even with lower taxes, it'd still be somewhat of struggle for them. This isn't the 1960s anymore, an experienced private sector professional on LI only making $50-60k is absolutely ridiculous considering that NYC metro is the most expensive in the country.
NYC entertainment and cultural amenities are great if you're young and single or if you don't plan of having children. For those with families you're not going to be eating at high ethnic restaurants, going out to upscale bars, going to musicals, or high end museums on a regular basis. Might as well just go live in Jacksonville or Phoenix with your family for fraction of the COL on LI and be much more comfortable.
When cops, nurses, doctors, etc. work 3 days a week they're working at least 12 hour shifts, not standard 8 hour shifts if you worked 5 days a week. You're right that many of private sector workers also weekends and OT depending what field they're in. But nights, holidays? Come on, what private sector industry on LI works nights and holidays except for hospitals and some retail. It's not like most of our private sector workers are employed by Google or large biotech companies where working nights and some holidays are required.
I don't have a problem paying police officers six figures, especially for a high COL area (I even think the police in Jackson, MS deserve that salary as well). Law enforcement workers and healthcare providers deal with crisis on a regular basis.
The bold, I disagree. I'm not denying that taxes are high on LI which contribute to the COL, but I don't believe it's the main reason why COL is so high. As for sales tax, that's got be a joke. NY actually has pretty reasonable sales taxes, and often sunbelt states have higher sales taxes. For many, housing is the biggest contributor to the high COL. $700k for a modest house with only 1 bath in Port Washington is crazy. I'm sure as heck not paying $530k for a 3 bedroom house in Wantagh. I mean yeah, I can sure find something for not too shabby $400k on LI but then we probably have to spend at least another $20k for renovations and expansion for our children. Utilities are *insane* on LI. Insurance and groceries are also way higher than average. Gas price are amongst the highest in downstate NY, I think only CA and HI have higher gas prices. In contrast, utilities are super low in CA (mostly because the weather is so mild you hardly ever need heat or AC) and fresh produce is cheaper. Housing is also generally newer and more spacious, $750k in Los Angeles County or Somona County will get you something much nicer than $750k in Nassau County IMO. Lastly as I said, CA has much better opportunities in the private sector than LI. NY state largest employer is government, even in NYC.
I'm sure there are people that are genuinely happy with living on LI that are only taking home 5 figures, but then how much are they able to save for their children and other personal expenses? Even with lower taxes, it'd still be somewhat of struggle for them. This isn't the 1960s anymore, an experienced private sector professional on LI only making $50-60k is absolutely ridiculous considering that NYC metro is the most expensive in the country.
NYC entertainment and cultural amenities are great if you're young and single or if you don't plan of having children. For those with families you're not going to be eating at high ethnic restaurants, going out to upscale bars, going to musicals, or high end museums on a regular basis. Might as well just go live in Jacksonville or Phoenix with your family for fraction of the COL on LI and be much more comfortable.
The reason COL is high for nearly everything is because local businesses have to charge more to cover the high property taxes. Let's face it, utilities and insurance can't compare to the massive property tax burden LI homeowners and businesses face. Another reason why it's impossible to attract and keep high quality industries here is basically they don't want to deal with the property tax burden. Why is that again? Because public sector workers make $150k - $200k after benefits. That's the bottom line.
So while you and steven r. want to pay cops and teachers well, so do I. But at what cost are we talking about here? Average LI homeowners are the ones being most hurt the most by it...not wall street fat cats. I don't think most people have a problem with $100k (6-figure) earners in the public sector. It's the second $100k added on top of that which brings it to unsustainable, detrimental pay scales.
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