Can we attract the same caliber of Police applicants for less money? (Nassau: house, buy)
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No one should be living in basement apartments, but the lack of affordable housing and rapidly escalating taxes force them to.
But to adjust the salaries solely based upon the cost of a house and potential homeownership? What if you have a cop who is a confirmed bachelor? Should he make more than a cop who is married to a woman who also employed? After all, the single man does not have the benefit of the 2nd income that the married man does.
If a PO or a teacher can afford a $600K McMansion, do we begrudge them? While I can only speak for myself, my hubby's paycheck is not our only source of income. I camethisclose to buying an $850K fixer upper a few years back -- we aren't white collar, and I am credits shy of my degree. Would you begrudge me that as I am not a degreed professional?
Salaries for all professions should be based upon the value of the service they provide, the education needed, the risk involved and the profession's level of necessity within the society. A roofer shouldn't be making as much as a cardiac surgeon, but more than the gardener as there is more risk involved being up on the roof.
Seeing as the teacher is the one responsible for teaching everyone, should we make them the top of the pay heap -- above police officers, nurses, doctors, engineers, presidents, astrophysicists and college deans?
Your attempts at clever twists on arguments fall very flat. Teachers are required to have masters degrees. Cops take on a job that affords some risk (although there are probably a half dozen occupations that have a higher mortality rate on LI than being a police officer) , but requires no advanced education. And please don't tell me that a few credits at SCC in criminal justice is advanced education. So, all things being equal, why are the cops making so much more?
Moderator cut: off topic Again, I don't blame you, but you have to understand the absurdity of the situation, and that while people are paying taxes through the nose, they see it as part of the problem..and they are right.
Last edited by Keeper; 08-22-2008 at 06:54 PM..
Reason: debate the issues not the person
If we reduce total compensation they are still making significantly more money than they would make in our neighboring police department, the NYPD. In addition, there's still the added incentive to work in the safest suburb in the US versus the world's capital. No one is suggesting paying our cops less than the NYPD, but they should have a total compensation that's in line with the consituency they serve. Some may decide to work in the private sector as becoming a cop won't be akin to "winning the lottery" anymore, but I' wager to say most will not given they don't have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on college degrees in order to become a cop.
What I am getting from this is that it is acceptable to some to have the PD total compensation reduced because they make too much money for people who may not have a college education.
If someone spends tens of thousands of dollars on an education, they automatically should make more than a PO? (You don't find that a tad elitist?) What about people who started out with a degree and career in the private sector and gave it up to follow a calling in public service? One of my friends did that -- 4 years at St Johns, an awesome degree in some business-related field, a $ suit and tie career and hated it. He chose to protect and serve in another state and has admitted to finding his work helping others rewarding. In other words, not all people join the PD in hopes of hitting the lottery. There are plenty of good people out there who want to help others.
What if we suggested we reduce teachers total compensation to be more in line with the teachers salary in the lower paying districts on LI? We would certainly expect an uproar.
If any position is akin to winning the lottery, it would be landing a teaching job on LI as the openings aren't as easy to come by. Chances are you have to know someone in the district. I can count off a few husband and wife, mother and daughter hires within my district. The PD has to go by the test, and then from a list and then narrow down the applicant candidates. What would happen if the school districts asked the same of teachers?
While the PD might make what some feel is too high of an amount after 5 years, the average PO doesn't stay as long as many teachers do.
Here's some old data, but take a look at the salaries of TVCSD teachers back in 1999 -- salaries without benefits. Notice the big increases in 3 short years. Look at the number of $85-90Kers. http://www.wakingbear.com/images/sto...vs_1999-09.pdf
There's a then $73K HS PE teacher -- what do you think he is pulling down 9 years later in 2008? And when we add the bennies on top -- he will have the SCPD beat. But he has college, right? He can teach our children B-ball, and have them run laps, he can coach an intramural sport. He should make more than the cop pulling over the drunk at 3AM? He should make more than the cop who had to report to the scene of a dead, smashed baby found on a street in Hempstead?
There's an $84K kindergarten teacher. A $90K absentee position. I won't point out names, but the list is loaded with nepotism. Some names change with marriage, but a daughter's a daughter the rest of her life.
The PD might seem like a lottery, but the risk and stress involved takes on the edge of Russian roulette.
Your attempts at clever twists on arguments fall very flat. Teachers are required to have masters degrees. Cops take on a job that affords some risk (although there are probably a half dozen occupations that have a higher mortality rate on LI than being a police officer) , but requires no advanced education. And please don't tell me that a few credits at SCC in criminal justice is advanced education. So, all things being equal, why are the cops making so much more?
So you are married to a cop, you know that he is ridiculously well compensated for what he does, and you feel motivated to defend his level of pay here. Again, I don't blame you, but you have to understand the absurdity of the situation, and that while people are paying taxes through the nose, they see it as part of the problem..and they are right.
Whoever said I was married to a cop? That's right -- only you. I have no affiliation with any PD on the PLANET.
Given that you are rather intense with your defense of teachers, it leads me to believe that somewhere along the line that you have some sort of connection to teachers that might benefit you.
Once again, compliments of an old FOIL: The TVCSD payroll 96 vs 99. They aren't amongst the highest paid districts and have complained all along that they should be making what their friends in Smithtown do. Once again -- the latest figure is 1999 and there are plenty of $85-90K earners back then -- 9 years ago. We don't have the total compensation with the benefits added in, so we can only go by salary.
No one should be living in basement apartments, but the lack of affordable housing and rapidly escalating taxes force them to.
But to adjust the salaries solely based upon the cost of a house and potential homeownership? What if you have a cop who is a confirmed bachelor? Should he make more than a cop who is married to a woman who also employed? After all, the single man does not have the benefit of the 2nd income that the married man does.
If a PO or a teacher can afford a $600K McMansion, do we begrudge them? While I can only speak for myself, my hubby's paycheck is not our only source of income. I camethisclose to buying an $850K fixer upper a few years back -- we aren't white collar, and I am credits shy of my degree. Would you begrudge me that as I am not a degreed professional?
Salaries for all professions should be based upon the value of the service they provide, the education needed, the risk involved and the profession's level of necessity within the society. A roofer shouldn't be making as much as a cardiac surgeon, but more than the gardener as there is more risk involved being up on the roof.
Seeing as the teacher is the one responsible for teaching everyone, should we make them the top of the pay heap -- above police officers, nurses, doctors, engineers, presidents, astrophysicists and college deans?
No one is saying compensation should be adjusted to reflected home prices, that's as assinine as it is incorrect. What compensation should be adjusted for though is the taxes. Just like how GM reduced the total compensation of its workforce in order to reduce the price of cars to stay more competitive. Nassau/ Suffolk county needs to adjust compensation (and all of their expenses) in order to remain competitive. Many young couples are leaving LI for more affordable dwelling. That will leave the extremely rich, the old (with the star exemption), and the police living here by 2020 - to steal a quote from clamboy.
Also, in response to your paragraph stating why should we begrudge a PO or teacher who can afford a mcmansion - the fact is we shouldn't, unless they are so overpaid and we are so overtaxed that the general public is struggling because we're spending so much of our hard earned money to support the civil servants of the county. I believe it has reached that point with the cops. Most households in Nassau and Suffolk do not make even 2/3rds of what the cops do. That's not even factoring in the other parts of their compensation which really send their total comp figure into the stratusphere. But if a cop, paid a decent wag, can save up and buy a nice big house - fine no issue. The issue comes into play when the police compensation is just so far over and above most other households and the tax situation is what it is.
I disagree with you suggesting what salaries should be. The market should dictate salaries. Surgeons are paid what they are because you must be highly skilled, highly intelligent, and highly educated. Plumbers who own their own business make what they do because they have developed a skill in a field where many people don't want to work - their is scarcity of the surgeons skills and scarcity of the plumbers skills. If there were tons of plumbers out there each one of them would bid below the other to work on my house because they want the work - then they would make less and their compensation would decrease. The problem with the cops is the skills required to do that job are not scarce. It does not take higher education or a great deal of intelligence to be an effective cop.
Moderator cut: You were asked not to make derogatory remarks about police officers
Last edited by nancy thereader; 08-28-2008 at 01:17 PM..
What I am getting from this is that it is acceptable to some to have the PD total compensation reduced because they make too much money for people who may not have a college education.
If someone spends tens of thousands of dollars on an education, they automatically should make more than a PO? (You don't find that a tad elitist?) What about people who started out with a degree and career in the private sector and gave it up to follow a calling in public service? One of my friends did that -- 4 years at St Johns, an awesome degree in some business-related field, a $ suit and tie career and hated it. He chose to protect and serve in another state and has admitted to finding his work helping others rewarding. In other words, not all people join the PD in hopes of hitting the lottery. There are plenty of good people out there who want to help others.
What if we suggested we reduce teachers total compensation to be more in line with the teachers salary in the lower paying districts on LI? We would certainly expect an uproar.
If any position is akin to winning the lottery, it would be landing a teaching job on LI as the openings aren't as easy to come by. Chances are you have to know someone in the district. I can count off a few husband and wife, mother and daughter hires within my district. The PD has to go by the test, and then from a list and then narrow down the applicant candidates. What would happen if the school districts asked the same of teachers?
While the PD might make what some feel is too high of an amount after 5 years, the average PO doesn't stay as long as many teachers do.
Here's some old data, but take a look at the salaries of TVCSD teachers back in 1999 -- salaries without benefits. Notice the big increases in 3 short years. Look at the number of $85-90Kers. http://www.wakingbear.com/images/sto...vs_1999-09.pdf
There's a then $73K HS PE teacher -- what do you think he is pulling down 9 years later in 2008? And when we add the bennies on top -- he will have the SCPD beat. But he has college, right? He can teach our children B-ball, and have them run laps, he can coach an intramural sport. He should make more than the cop pulling over the drunk at 3AM? He should make more than the cop who had to report to the scene of a dead, smashed baby found on a street in Hempstead?
There's an $84K kindergarten teacher. A $90K absentee position. I won't point out names, but the list is loaded with nepotism. Some names change with marriage, but a daughter's a daughter the rest of her life.
The PD might seem like a lottery, but the risk and stress involved takes on the edge of Russian roulette.
You are missing the point again - teachers NEED that degree in order to do their job. Police officers do not need a degree to do their job. Some of the best cops around have no education. In addition, there are many excellent cops who are out of shape. Cops don't need to be in shape to do their jobs (and if they did, why don't we have testing each year for current cops to show they have maintained a level of physical ability?).
The point is this: since teaching requires a college degree in order to become a teacher (this is a barrier to entry, no degree, no job), there's built in scarcity. Is there the possibility that a person can be a good teacher without any formal education? Yes, it's possible but unlikely to find them. For cops, there's no built in scarcity, or no barrier to entry to being a good cop. As I said before, they are many great cops without education or physical prowess. You must have all functionality as a cop, but you don't have to be Mr. America either. Therefore, the # of potential applicants for police jobs is sky high - significantly less than their are for teaching jobs. Thus, the demand for police jobs is higher than for teaching jobs (there are more qualified people demanding police jobs than qualified people demanding teaching jobs). Taking that into consideration, we can cut the compensation for police because the demand is so high and still find capable and qualified applicants.
Whoever said I was married to a cop? That's right -- only you. I have no affiliation with any PD on the PLANET.
Given that you are rather intense with your defense of teachers, it leads me to believe that somewhere along the line that you have some sort of connection to teachers that might benefit you.
Once again, compliments of an old FOIL: The TVCSD payroll 96 vs 99. They aren't amongst the highest paid districts and have complained all along that they should be making what their friends in Smithtown do. Once again -- the latest figure is 1999 and there are plenty of $85-90K earners back then -- 9 years ago. We don't have the total compensation with the benefits added in, so we can only go by salary.
How many years have the 85-95k earners been working? Only 7 like in the NCPD to earn that kind of money, or 20 years?
And they are pretty close to maxing out on pay. You'll see very few teachers break the 110K mark, while most cops in Suffolk are exceeding that with overtime after 7 years.
By the way, I've mentioned openly that I am married to a teacher..but I also pay high school taxes, and I also see my in laws having to move because they can't afford the $9,000 in taxes they have to pay on their house. It's heartbreaking. The teachers in that district are not close to the highest paid, but there is so much kicking back and unethical behavior involved.
My wife had no connections in the district she teaches in, so she got her job after doing leave replacement, which took 4 years AFTER here getting her degree. During that time she subbed, taught night school, and worked private sector jobs. It was very difficult for those 4 years. Now she's got 8 years of experience and her students consistently out perform the other teachers in her department. Are there teachers in her school who shouldn't be in the job? Absolutely. I can think of 3 people in her school who the other teachers bash because they are always calling in sick and play videos in class every day. That's 3 out of a faculty of 100 or so, and 2 of them may be gone soon.
As for the connected hirings, I know that in the district my in-laws live in, the last 3 hires were people with school board or administrative connections, straight out of school. Every person involved with those hires should be voted off the board. That is nonsense that should have the constituents breaking down doors.
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