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So I recently started undergrad and I plan on eventually attending law school. Given how bad the legal job market is I only plan on doing so if I can attend a top 14 school, ideally top 6 (my dream school is Columbia). Based on all my current research law schools care about your undergrad, but only in a minor way, for example a 3.9 at a random state school will likely beat out a 3.8 at Harvard. That being said I still care very much about my education and I want to give myself every advantage possible.
At the moment I'm going to Westfield State, and I really like it there. But I want to do either a Political Science or a Philosophy major. Westfield only offers a minor in Philosophy, and kind of a poor Political Science program. I'm thinking of transferring to Umass, but I've heard it has a reputation as kind of a party school. Partying itself won't effect me much since I'm going to be living at home to save money for Law School, but what I'm really worried about is that the school itself might be looked down on in the academic community.
I know it's not a super high tier school, but what I need to know is, is it respected? How is the education quality?
Each department in any university has its own reputation. Some will be very good and highly respected, others not so. You should contact someone in the admissions department of a school you are interested in and ask them what they think of UMASS's department in your chosen major.
I got my MA at UMASS in the late 70s, and had wonderful professors who, because it wasn't a premium school at that time, weren't too busy to spend time with me and give me a lot of personal attention. I taught undergrads and yes, there was definitely a major party culture, but when a student showed interest in classes, the professors really appreciated it and were available for personal attention.
In contrast, I got my undergrad degree in one of the country's top 10 private universities where the professors were much too distinguished to waste any time on undergrads and no one took any interest in me, as a student, at all.
So it's really up to you. If you are interested in learning and seek out teachers at UMASS Amherst, you are likely to get a very good education. I have a relative who runs a lab there and am struck by her interest in each of her students and the degree to which she works to see that they have meaningful experiences in her lab. If you want to drink and party, there will be plenty of people willing to join in with you, but most of them will flunk out by their third year.
So I recently started undergrad and I plan on eventually attending law school. Given how bad the legal job market is I only plan on doing so if I can attend a top 14 school, ideally top 6 (my dream school is Columbia). Based on all my current research law schools care about your undergrad, but only in a minor way, for example a 3.9 at a random state school will likely beat out a 3.8 at Harvard. That being said I still care very much about my education and I want to give myself every advantage possible.
At the moment I'm going to Westfield State, and I really like it there. But I want to do either a Political Science or a Philosophy major. Westfield only offers a minor in Philosophy, and kind of a poor Political Science program. I'm thinking of transferring to Umass, but I've heard it has a reputation as kind of a party school. Partying itself won't effect me much since I'm going to be living at home to save money for Law School, but what I'm really worried about is that the school itself might be looked down on in the academic community.
I know it's not a super high tier school, but what I need to know is, is it respected? How is the education quality?
Thank you in advance.
In general, the bigger the school, the more variable the education quality. That variable is often you--you can put in the effort, take hard classes, engage your professors, and get a great education. Alternately you can do none of that, skate by, and get a mediocre education.
In terms of reputation, I can't speak for the philosophy department, but I can say that the overall reputation for UMass is higher than that for Westfield (I can't say if that is deserved). UMass has a national reputation and Westfield doesn't.
I graduated from UMass in '87 with a BA in PoliSci, minor in history. Though things may very well have changed, I found the Polisci faculty generally quite good, but the History Department was fantastic - I wish I had chosen it as my major. For what it's worth, a recent ranking by one major American publication (sorry-forgot which one) of the top 100 universities around the world had UMass, Amherst at #99.
So I recently started undergrad and I plan on eventually attending law school. Given how bad the legal job market is I only plan on doing so if I can attend a top 14 school, ideally top 6 (my dream school is Columbia). Based on all my current research law schools care about your undergrad, but only in a minor way, for example a 3.9 at a random state school will likely beat out a 3.8 at Harvard. That being said I still care very much about my education and I want to give myself every advantage possible.
At the moment I'm going to Westfield State, and I really like it there. But I want to do either a Political Science or a Philosophy major. Westfield only offers a minor in Philosophy, and kind of a poor Political Science program. I'm thinking of transferring to Umass, but I've heard it has a reputation as kind of a party school. Partying itself won't effect me much since I'm going to be living at home to save money for Law School, but what I'm really worried about is that the school itself might be looked down on in the academic community.
I know it's not a super high tier school, but what I need to know is, is it respected? How is the education quality?
Ah, hells yeah. People have heard of Umass Amherst. A big chunk of my graduating Boston Latin School class went to Umass Amherst on full MCAS scholarships. I totally respect anyone who went to UMass Amherst, especially the honors program. If you go with Umass Amherst, you can also take courses at Amherst College, Mount Holyoke, Smith College, and Williams College, which are the among best liberal arts colleges in the country. If you're trying to gauge Westfield reputation's, I work at a college near Boston and I've never heard of Westfield. But then I've heard of North Shore Community College and Framingham State, but that doesn't reflect anything on the quality of those schools.
Anyway, where did you get this info about 3.8 GPA at the top 14 beating out a 3.9 GPA state school? Perhaps UC Berkeley grad can do it, but I doubt Harvard Law will automatically favor 3.9 GPA Umass Amherst student over a 3.8 GPA Harvard undergrad. I don't think it's just a GPA numbers game. You also have to factor LSAT scores, professor recommendations, essays, etc.
I know the law field is not in the best of shape, but limiting yourself to the top 14 law schools is going to spell a lot of disappointment in the end even if you get a 3.9 GPA. Those are just crazy competitive schools--BC and BU are not in the top 14 and I know people think extremely highly of them and consider them "reach" schools. To put things in perspective, I know two people who went to Wellesley and Harvard undergrad with 3.3 GPAs with SCIENCE concentrations and respectable LSAT scores. Both are really good writers. They applied to Harvard, BU, and BC and did not get accepted by any of those three. They didn't give up on those law degrees, and they are fine. (But then again, having gone to undergrad to those schools, I noticed they tended to get more interview chances than their law school classmates.) Anyway, you should apply to the top schools, but you should know there are other perfectly good law schools beyond the top 14. You're obviously an ambitious person, and if you do your research ahead of time you should navigate life perfectly fine.
Here are questions you might consider
Why must I go to the top 14? Some of the law schools beyond the top 6 or 14 have strengths in patent, international, public, tax, tort, etc. If one of those is your passions, some schools are stronger than others and some law firms or government agencies will recruit from those schools with good programs. So you should look at each law program, and see were their graduates end up. You might also look at the type of company or government agency you want to join, and see where their employees went to law school because then you can network with them. You also might do informational interviews to get an idea how tight the job market is and what specialties employers are looking for. Remember, it's 7-10 years before you hit the law job market and it might be different by then.
What field of law holds my interested or what sector do I prefer? Obviously, when you attend law school, your mind might change. But when you write those admission essays or get that rec from a professor, having some focus in your life will make you look different from the other wishy-washy 22-year-olds. You can also start tailoring your undergrad career in a way to maximize your chances. For example, if you want to work for the big law firm representing Google, you are better off going to a law school near Silicon valley and doing your undergrad as a electric engineer or computer science major. You can have a 4.0 GPA in Philosophy, but Google will not care for a philosopher king to pour over the technical intricacies of patent law. If you want to go into federal government, the FBI will care more if you have an accounting background and the EPA will prefer that their lawyers have a science background. Of course, some law fields are not as technical, but at least do the basic research. If you want to be a real estate attorney at a small law firm, then you don't have to have a top 14 law school degree. You shouldn't just dismiss the law field just because you didn't get into a top 14...
Where do I want to eventually settle down? Yes, you can have a Harvard Law degree and probably work anywhere. But if you go to a school no employer has heard of out in the boonies, you'll have a harder time finding work in the big city. But if you want to settle in Hawaii, you probably will do fine going to the law school there because of the local reputation and alumni network. Some law schools also have much better internship programs than others. For example, x law school in rural America will have a harder find places for their students than say Northeastern, which is located in a city with a lot of employers in the private and public sector. At Northeastern, you graduate with 1 year of law experience and since they don't have grades, you get 40 pages worth of course evaluations. Boston employers appreciate the write-ups. Employers out of Boston, don't really know about Northeastern's system. But then again, co-ops give you a better networking opportunity and if you impress an employer as an intern, they might hire you after you graduate.
Look, I am of the opinion that a 22-year-old who doesn't know what they want out of life with a very nebulous idea of the law, should NOT waste three years and $200K "finding themselves" by going to law school. I also shake my head at the newly minted JDs who huddle over their computers depressed, constantly sending electronic resumes into the black internet pit. If they missed the recruiting opportunities in law school, they really can't expect an employer to suddenly recognize their brilliance from the resume mound and hand them a job on a silver platter. They really got to do the leg work of networking, polishing their interview skills, and being well-rounded but also focused on what you want in life.
But it's a different story if you know what you want and you are very good at selling yourself. Also, my final piece of advice. If you don't get an acceptance letter right after college, don't be afraid to work for a few years. Most of the people I know who go to law school, don't go right after college.
Last edited by sharencare; 12-10-2012 at 04:41 PM..
The best thing about UMass is that as part of the five college system you can take classes at Amherst, Smith, Mt Holyoke and Hampshire wihtout paying their prices or gaining admission.
I graduated from UMass in '87 with a BA in PoliSci, minor in history. Though things may very well have changed, I found the Polisci faculty generally quite good, but the History Department was fantastic - I wish I had chosen it as my major. For what it's worth, a recent ranking by one major American publication (sorry-forgot which one) of the top 100 universities around the world had UMass, Amherst at #99.
Agree with History. My 2nd degree was History at UMass. Then onto a Masters in a different subject different school.
Get your degree and if healthy join the military as an officer.
You will never be out of employment if you follow this route.
The name of the school on the piece of paper they give you is meaningless. It is what you put into the school and what you take from the school is what is important.
UMass has suffered big-time with budget cuts. Popular courses (especially intro-level) are harder to get into, departments particularly in liberal arts have had to withstand reductions in faculty, the library no longer subscribes to many specialized periodicals, etc. However, it still holds true that you get out what you put in. One of my housemates while I was there tore through earning his engineering degree - even graduating early, when going on the five-year plan in that field isn't unheard of. He had his pick of prestigious PhD programs to go right into without obtaining a Masters degree. (Having the highest GPA in the concentration, which in turn was deemed the most difficult in the engineering college, obviously helped a lot.)
Two things are for certain. One is that an undergrad degree from UMass will go a lot farther than one from one of the state colleges, which after all were first established to focus on teacher training. The other is that a UMass law school is in the planning stages and could very well be ready for its first class by the time you finish your Bachelors. You'd be pretty well guaranteed admission provided your grades held up. (Taking full advantage of the Five Colleges exchange and loading up on classes at Smith and Amherst couldn't do any harm either. Seeing those schools' names on a transcript would cause any admissions officer to take notice.)
Other than that, the responses before mine have been thorough and useful so I've nothing to add. Best o' luck!
Some good responses here: I just graduated in the summer and would say that the school's party reputation does it a disservice. I went through the Isenberg business school (and also double majored in Economics) and really liked my time there. Amherst is a great town and I felt like my professors were mostly fantastic, with only a handful of exceptions.
If you want a good education, it is absolutely available there.
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