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Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,981,862 times
Reputation: 40635
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Lowell has improved a great deal over the last 20 years. To me it isn't even like the same city. Lawrence is lost though.
The State isn't that big that it makes sense to have multiple large and dense cities.
I also don't get the nanny state comments. How does that reflect itself? I've lived in a few States: MA, VT, WI, CA, IN, and KY. The most conservative states (IN and KY) had by far the worst environments (very poor environmental regulations and enforcement) and job prospects, and not surprisingly, are less desirable places to live (so very cheap to live in) for the vast majority of people. I'm guessing these might be considered states that are less nanny-ish, though I'm not sure what is meant by the term, but if so, that doesn't seem to be a positive.
Last edited by timberline742; 12-26-2013 at 06:37 AM..
If you're 33 you need to make the move soon, before you get married, have kids, etc. Otherwise, you run the risk of being stuck. What is your profession?
"I also don't get the nanny state comments. How does that reflect itself? I've lived in a few States: MA, VT, WI, CA, IN, and KY. The most conservative states (IN and KY) had by far the worst environments (very poor environmental regulations and enforcement) and job prospects, and not surprisingly, are less desirable places to live (so very cheap to live in) for the vast majority of people. I'm guessing these might be considered states that are less nanny-ish, though I'm not sure what is meant by the term, but if so, that doesn't seem to be a positive."
Indianapolis has nearly a million people which is easily more than any city in New England. There's not much of a connection between desirable places and the cost of living.
In California they have Prop 13 which caps property taxes as they can only rise when a property is sold. So under theory you can have two properties back to back of the same physical entity but if someone moved in during 1985 and someone moved in last year you could see someone spending hundreds vs thousands. That's inequity and outright wrong as it rewards those that moved in "first".
In Mass there is a similar one of prop 2 1/2 that caps the raise at 2.5% or they go to a override by public vote. Again that limits what a local government can raise and therefore restricts public spending. These aren't exactly "blue" areas as you might describe. So what happens if you cannot raise taxes? Well you raise the assessment rate. So a $240k house in 1995 becomes $300k in 2000, $350 in 2005, $425 in 2009, $520 in 2012. Assessment has nothing to do with actual real value in Mass. Housing prices are artificially inflated.
As for environment I'm sure you might know that there's no laws in VT that demand that a house has to have a flushing toilet! It also has a total lack of gun laws and the majority of it's population is located in Burlington which requires hours to drive to. It's a great area but they restrict growth in order to keep the balance that way. Let's not also forget that superfund sites are in every state in the country. Hallimore in Holbrook Mass had purple grass growing! There was a oil spill in buzzards bay back a decade ago. I worked for one of the largest environmental service companies in the country and saw plenty of evidence of pollution in many of the states you mentioned.
Let's not also forget in VT most of the state is making about $12/hr. It's a great state to visit but unless you live in northern VT there's really not much for work at all. Why can't there be three to four other places like Burlington?
Nannyish? Totally. In Mass you cannot do plumbing work in walls, ceilings and floors. For decades retailers could not open up on sundays, alcohol sales were often the same way.
Keep in mind what also adds to the cost of living is having less of a tax base. Unions don't pay taxes, colleges/universities don't pay taxes, non profits don't pay taxes. Not that any of these are wrong but the massive concentration of them in eastern mass puts pressures on local governments to raise taxes on everyone else. When Harvard and MIT expand it creates issues in Cambridge, when Brown expands in Providence it creates issues as well. PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes) programs exist but it still isn't enough.
The middle class in New England works where exactly? How many professional jobs without degrees are expanding? It seems the growth is really on the polar ends.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
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Wow, Indianapolis, now that is a horrid city. Perhaps the least desirable larger city in the U.S. Dullsville. Chicago is great however.
There isn't plumbing done in walls or ceilings? Huh, there is in my place. And much of the blue laws are gone, for better or worse. So that is a non issue.
Sure, there is pollution and superfund cites in many places across the country, but nothing like the coal fields of Western KY and Southern IN like where I worked. Living hell is the best way to describe them. Thankfully the situation has improved a little since the mining reform under President Carter, but it could be much better.
What is a professional job without a degree? What does that even mean? I'm middle class in MA, as are many people on this forum. There is no lack of middle class here.
Three to four places like Burlington would ruin what VT is. I don't want that, and most people in VT don't either. It doesn't require hours to drive to if you live there. Not sure what your statement even means.
But hey, if you'd rather be in a more conservative state, please go right ahead. I lived in them, no desire to go back.
MA will always be home, and I will probably always have a love/hate relation with it (as I think most here do). But for some reason, it seems to be harder and harder to love each progressive year. The level of arrogance here is baffling. We love to think we are the center of the world, but in reality we are just living off the legacy of our founding fathers (like a bunch of trust fund brats). The brain drain is huge. We are fast becoming a land of the rich and poor (much faster than the rest of the country). The politics are nauseating (balance, people?). Everyday I see those EBT cards being whipped out by folks sporting nicer jackets, phones and cars than I do; while I have to slow down to 5 miles an hour on my road so my truck won't blow a tie rod. People love to complain, but they'll keep voting back in the same clowns while expecting different results.
I'm sort of stuck here so I probably won't be leaving anytime soon, but MA is definitely not the same place it was even 10-15 years ago.
In Mass there is a similar one of prop 2 1/2 that caps the raise at 2.5% or they go to a override by public vote. Again that limits what a local government can raise and therefore restricts public spending. These aren't exactly "blue" areas as you might describe. So what happens if you cannot raise taxes? Well you raise the assessment rate. So a $240k house in 1995 becomes $300k in 2000, $350 in 2005, $425 in 2009, $520 in 2012. Assessment has nothing to do with actual real value in Mass. Housing prices are artificially inflated.
Prop 2 1/2 limits the entire levy a town can raise to a 2.5% increase. So if the total value increases by 10%, it would have to reduce the "tax rate" by about 7% or so. Some homes will rise or fall faster than others, so that's how it's possible for one's taxes to rise by more than 2.5% (or if an override is approved).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
It also has a total lack of gun laws
Oh the horror! Their murder rate must be through the roof then! Oh no wait, it's actually one of the lowest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
Keep in mind what also adds to the cost of living is having less of a tax base. Unions don't pay taxes, colleges/universities don't pay taxes, non profits don't pay taxes. Not that any of these are wrong but the massive concentration of them in eastern mass puts pressures on local governments to raise taxes on everyone else. When Harvard and MIT expand it creates issues in Cambridge, when Brown expands in Providence it creates issues as well. PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes) programs exist but it still isn't enough.
No our taxes are super high because our extravagant entitlement system. If we spent average (adjusted for cost of living), the state would be flush with cash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdovell
The middle class in New England works where exactly? How many professional jobs without degrees are expanding? It seems the growth is really on the polar ends.
Fewer and fewer middle-class jobs where the wages are not keeping up with the rise in COL that the super rich and growing "needy" populations bring with it. Hence the brain drain, and why more and
more young folk are leaving for VA, NC, TX, AZ, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timberline742
But hey, if you'd rather be in a more conservative state, please go right ahead. I lived in them, no desire to go back.
How about just an in-between state? Does it have to be either extreme? Even if MA would go back to the way it was before (Weld/Cellucci years), that wouldn't be so bad. But the declining middle class also equates to declining common sense.
I have a lot of relatives in this state in their 20s-30s and looking at them, it's clear there's a problem.
All grew up in solid middle class households, with accountants, engineers, and skilled tradesmen as parents. You know, the families who lived in neighborhoods where every colonial had Christmas lights in the windows and on the trees; the kind of winter scene Hallmark movies love. It's almost like life was too comfortable growing up, too cushioned, and none of them were able to launch past a few years of college. None of them could afford the house they grew up in. None of them have any career plans. Some are working in retail, others are working as secretaries, a few lucky ones have relative connections in union trades and are starting that (but even then it's not a smooth ride, several quit). A few make a living flipping houses or managing rentals. Many have alcohol or drug problems.
I'm pretty sure it's a national phenomenon, but I do think that it's more stark in MA because our standard of living was so much higher and this generational collapse is more apparent. I also feel that many relatively wealthy towns in MA created such an idyllic New England environment that it became horribly boring and unappreciated. The kids took it for granted and didn't really absorb the effort it took to get there, and so growing up in this environment killed personal ambition for the average person. The ones who make it here often had external drivers and were top of the class, attended top colleges often out of state, and got their feet into multinational companies, became bankers, lawyers and doctors. But there is a huge sea of people left behind in the drudgery of retail sales jobs.
Maybe this is just all my extended family, but talking to my friends, we're clearly not alone. This state is for the super successful (who still live like average middle class here) or the truly impoverished.
Location: RI, MA, VT, WI, IL, CA, IN (that one sucked), KY
41,936 posts, read 36,981,862 times
Reputation: 40635
Quote:
Originally Posted by massnative71
How about just an in-between state? Does it have to be either extreme? Even if MA would go back to the way it was before (Weld/Cellucci years), that wouldn't be so bad. But the declining middle class also equates to declining common sense.
MA seems fairly in between to me. No lack of Republican Governors have been elected here.
My preferred state, Wisconsin, has decidedly gone right wing in State politics and has had the expected reduction in quality of life issues.
What would be an example to you of an in between state? Maine?
I'm a more newb in this State...4 yrs. It's been good to us and very good to both mine and my wife's career (we both have grad degrees). Our son likes it here too. Yeah, the COL is high but that's not something we think about really. We do ok financially I guess but certainly aren't wealthy and live very much within (below really) our means. And we like all the young college kids, they add an energy to the place and having the top Uni's so close we hope will inspire our son as he matures. We can do without the long winter but it's also part of the charm of New England. I don't know, I'm liking it here.
I'll say this, I've lived in places I didn't like and looking back on those times considering what I know about life now that I'm older, I think it was more me than those places.
I'm a more newb in this State...4 yrs. It's been good to us and very good to both mine and my wife's career (we both have grad degrees). Our son likes it here too. Yeah, the COL is high but that's not something we think about really. We do ok financially I guess but certainly aren't wealthy and live very much within (below really) our means.
Yup, Massachusetts is pretty good for the highly educated, and even then they mostly live like the middle class. But imagine if you have no degree here or just a college degree from a noname school. It's hard to get by here.
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