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Actually the garbage pickup portion of my property taxes ($9400 which is about average or even slightly lower than average) is listed as $305. I don't know if any of the $1218 combined Town taxes covers part of that, however.
If anyone is morbidly curious, here's a breakdown of my most recent (Dec 2013) tax bill and what it covers:
School taxes $5450 (up 5.3% from previous year; a 5% to 6% annual increase is typical for LI)
County tax $91
District Court $18
Police (this is the county police which has at least one precinct house in each community) $1390
Townwide $468
Town General $104
Highway I $525
Highway II, III and IV $120
NY State Real Property Tax Fund $193
NY State Real Property Tax Fund PD [whatever the heck PD means, lol] $26
Metropolitan Transit Authority tax $3
Metropolitan Transit Authority tax PD $3 [these are taxes that every homeowner in NY state pays in order to help support the trains and subway system serving NY City. Stupid, eh?]
Out of County Tuition Fund $13 [Our county is required to pay the "sponsors share" of the tuition difference if a county resident student attends a NYS college in a different county. All of the homeowners in a county kick into this fund via this property tax assessment.]
Ambulance District $93 [even though the ambulances are run by the local fire departments, this is a separate assessment from the fire dept budget]
Fire Department $291
Library $293 [this is a typical year over year increase; anywhere from 2% to 3%]
Street Lighting $20
Highway Lighting $19
Garbage Collection, Single Family Home $305. This varies from year to year because it’s done by carters under contract from each township, and so the amount changes according to which company is doing which neighborhood in the upcoming year, and how much the town will be paying that company. A “legal” two-family house would pay more than a single-family for this service.
So that's what we get for our tax dollars here. You'll note there is no entry for sewers or water. That's because only relatively few communities on LI have a sewer system; everyone else has cesspools or septic systems (usually cesspools). The communities that are on a sewer system also pay a sewer district tax within their property taxes; this tax ranges from $500 to $1500 per year or more depending on the assessed value of the house. Our water is billed to us quarterly directly from the Suffolk County Water Authority, via metered service.
Last edited by Never2L8; 03-17-2014 at 07:49 AM..
Reason: corrected spacing
Is 2x per week trash pickup worth $5,000 per year extra to you? Because that is the difference in taxes between what I pay on my house in MA, and what the owners of the house I rented on LI paid. Similar houses in similar towns economically/demographically.
As for shopping being crowded, someone from LI will actually find MA a relief. Only difference is you may have to travel a few miles further to get to the shopping, but with the traffic on LI it will probably take about the same amount of time. Remember, there are almost 3 million people on LI (almost 8 million if you count Brooklyn and Queens with geographically are on LI).
A few more thoughts - beer/liquor prices are higher in MA compared to LI, because of taxes. Gas is cheaper in MA compared to LI, again because of taxes.
Overall, I noticed that aside from property taxes which are overall much lower in MA except for some select towns, the other taxes between MA and LI/NY are about a wash. Some are higher, some are lower.
I do not think it just trash, but transit, roads, and schools that could be in better shape there. There could be issue of corruption as well.
There are very many schools in this area that are old and unmaintained for decades now. Roads in complete disrepair including other infrastructure, libraries, playgrounds, etc...We need wide scale renovations to bring us into 21 century. MA has one of the highest state debt per capita already, with billions in unfunded municipal obligations. Things could get ugly very soon.
Shopping is becoming a nightmare, and traveling further to be able to sit in the traffic longer, I do not see any advantage to that. There is barely parking to be found anywhere. Even on workdays I need to look for a while to park in my local supermarket. And no, I am not trying to be closest to the door.
I think that people are underestimating number of families, and young people who moved here or stayed after college, with good economy and expansion of bio-tech sector. Plus, students and graduate students numbers are quite high as well, and not just limited to Boston proper. Decade ago one could still take for granted being able to park here and there, or sit on a bus, but now, good luck to you my friend, even parking garages are often full, and public transport is humiliating.
I disagree with the assessment that Eastern MA is so much better now than LI, and think that if, we here, are not yet uniformly at the level of the high costs that residents of LI have to deal with now, we are no more than a decade away from the same issues of high-sky taxes.
Both areas are crowded with high costs of living, and maxed-out space, including harsh winters, and often corrupted politicians.
There's a lot more to MA than the overcrowded Boston area but apparently people need to live around there for jobs. The state really needs to help the other cities and towns that also pay taxes. Everything seems to go to the Boston area but there are many people who never go anywhere near that area.
And, yes, why are our schools and libraries in such deplorable condition? Our roads are not maintained very well. But we all pay for things like a Big Dig which most of us never use. Probably due to the age old problem of political corruption.
The state really needs to help the other cities and towns that also pay taxes. Everything seems to go to the Boston area but there are many people who never go anywhere near that area.
I'm not convinced. If there was really a disproportionate distribution, then the schools, libraries, and roads in Boston would be perfect. Instead, they're significantly substandard, in the context of reasonable expectations shaped by the past. I think, rather, what you're seeing is simply a reflection of a relatively low-cost approach to state governance, even though it seems high-cost to you. The actual cost of what you'd expect in terms of these things is probably a lot higher than you'd realized.
I also think that there's a significant cost associated with the inefficiencies of administering rural living. We have these discussions here on C-D all the time - rural versus urban - with rural folks touting the substantially better standard of living they derive from the greater amount of open space rural living offers, the relative freedom from the daily stress that city-dwellers typically suffer from, etc. It's pretty definitive: Rural folks make clear that they live better and wouldn't want to sacrifice that to live in the city. City folks by contrast talk about how they cannot "afford" to move to the country, how they worry about being able to find work in the country, etc. That clear advantage to living in rural areas has a cost - a significant cost.
Perhaps the most illuminating aspect of this is something I see all over my office: I have a number of co-workers who live in rural areas. They make a big deal about having to commute (one of them, two hours each way) to get to and from work. Don't get me wrong - long commutes suck. But why are they commuting instead of finding a job in the town they live or one of its neighboring towns? Because the urban areas spend money attracting employers. So these urban areas spend that money, and those rural areas garner the benefit in terms of paychecks, effectively taking some of the return on the investment urban areas generate, attracting employers, and carrying that return on investment off out of the city to some remote rural town.
I had no idea that many of the MA school districts and roads are in a condition that portends large upgrade or repair expenses (via taxes) down the road. That is definitely something that would concern me, because I will not be in a financial position to relocate a second time during retirement.
I have found via research that many states/regions with significantly lower property taxes are also significantly lacking (or at least deficient) in one or more important factors .. whether it's roads, maintenance, police, fire, schools etc.
That said.... there is also a HUGE amount of waste here in schools and even the library system. A typical community will have one high school, probably one or two junior high schools, and a number of grade schools. The high school will have numerous sports and after school programs, probably a swimming pool, athletic fields etc of course. But the biggest expenses are the salaries and the associated costs that go with them. The superintendent of a school district here makes well into six figures. My DIL who is not even 30 years old yet is a music (chorus) teacher in one of the middle schools and is already making into the mid $80K range and with great benefits, and will have an excellent retirement package when the time comes. Our community's library which is not one of the large or "fancy" ones by any means, employs 25 people including 3 janitors and the Director currently makes $125K per year. Yes it is nice that they constantly run special classes and activities and bus trips etc etc but none of those are free; people who want to take part in them have to pay for doing so.
The prospect of huge property tax increases to fund the upgrading of schools and roads and other facilities in MA does give me pause because that's exactly the kind of scenario that I need to avoid. When the great migration to NC began, I assumed that would happen down there as well, thus took the tales of dirt-cheap property taxes with about a pound of salt, LOL.
Actually the garbage pickup portion of my property taxes ($9400 which is about average or even slightly lower than average) is listed as $305. I don't know if any of the $1218 combined Town taxes covers part of that, however.
So that's what we get for our tax dollars here. You'll note there is no entry for sewers or water. That's because only relatively few communities on LI have a sewer system; everyone else has cesspools or septic systems (usually cesspools). The communities that are on a sewer system also pay a sewer district tax within their property taxes; this tax ranges from $500 to $1500 per year or more depending on the assessed value of the house. Our water is billed to us quarterly directly from the Suffolk County Water Authority, via metered service.
My property tax in an "expensive" town about 20 miles W. of Boston is roughly $7K/year, and always going up. However: I live in a 1300 S.F. "cape-on-a-slab" that is basically Tear-Down quality. I don't know how nice your house or your town is? In Waltham, F.I., taxes are way lower--say $4500 for a decent $500K house.
Winters: I went thru a couple of Winters on L.I., & one in Westchester Co. They weren't nearly as brutal as Winters in E. Mass. Oh, & see how many threads there are re: Mass. residents fed up with the crazy price of housing, the Winters, & sometimes the taxes. Not a place to move to for retirement; if that's what you're doing. There's always.......N.C., maybe? Seriously, I'd look elsewhere for lower taxes & non-horrible Winters......
WoodyWW, my taxes are for a 1300-sf, circa 1960, 3-bedroom/2 bath ranch with a partial 1-car garage, and unfinished partial basement, on 1/2 acre. I would say it was "average" quality: not a teardown or handyman special, but not "luxe" either. It has central air (which is expected here) but no inground pool (which is also expected here, for some idiotic reason). Public water but no sewers. The only reason it has 2 bathrooms is that former owners took away part of the garage (which is why it's not usable for a car, LOL).
ETA: If the house did have an inground pool, the taxes would be about $700/yr higher.
p.s. I am somewhat familiar with Waltham because my son went to Bentley there. For two years he lived in the Archstone apartments there which he liked very much but which weren't cheap... I think it was $1800/month for a one-bedroom. I'm sure they are more expensive now, because that was ten years ago!
I also think that there's a significant cost associated with the inefficiencies of administering rural living. We have these discussions here on C-D all the time - rural versus urban - with rural folks touting the substantially better standard of living they derive from the greater amount of open space rural living offers, the relative freedom from the daily stress that city-dwellers typically suffer from, etc. It's pretty definitive: Rural folks make clear that they live better and wouldn't want to sacrifice that to live in the city. City folks by contrast talk about how they cannot "afford" to move to the country, how they worry about being able to find work in the country, etc. That clear advantage to living in rural areas has a cost - a significant cost.
Especially in Massachusetts where each town likes to be function and be viewed as an island. It's incredibly inefficient. I lived in Maryland for a while and their rural areas function on a county level which leads extraordinary savings over our approach. While MA is slowly warming to expanding regionalization of schools and services, it's common practice down there. It's absurd that a town of 9,000 people in MA that's 20 square miles needs its own elementary, middle and high schools, police force, fire department, etc. while the nearly identical town next door has the same setup. Regionalization of services reduces the amount of money required for building construction and maintenance, staffing, and infrastructure by a staggering degree. I've been shocked at how slow Massachusetts has been to adopt a similar approach.
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Perhaps the most illuminating aspect of this is something I see all over my office: I have a number of co-workers who live in rural areas. They make a big deal about having to commute (one of them, two hours each way) to get to and from work. Don't get me wrong - long commutes suck. But why are they commuting instead of finding a job in the town they live or one of its neighboring towns? Because the urban areas spend money attracting employers. So these urban areas spend that money, and those rural areas garner the benefit in terms of paychecks, effectively taking some of the return on the investment urban areas generate, attracting employers, and carrying that return on investment off out of the city to some remote rural town.
So more likely, it's a wash.
I have less sympathy for those who complain about their long commute from the suburbs or rural areas. These are the same folks who can't comprehend how I could prefer a small apartment in the city to their larger home in the suburbs; yet they get frustrated when they sit in traffic for 3-4 hours round trip every day and I mention that I'll have a beer in my hand on my couch 15-20 minutes after walking out of my office (which I do in response to the condescending remarks about where I live). It's all a choice. And the "quality of life" garbage is a matter of perspective. I work 40 hours a week. I don't want to spend 15-20 more hours each week commuting to my home outside of the city. That 15-20 hours amounts to about 780-1040 hours per year that I don't spend sitting in traffic and they do. Obviously 1.5 to 2 hours each way is on the long end of the spectrum (though I have a few in my office that do it). But 1 hour each way is fairly normal, and that's 10 hours per week and over 500 per year which is still a lot of wasted time (and gas money).
Many of the commute complainers are also the same folks who would be outraged at any developer who planned an office development in their community. How many times have we read an article about a proposed office park, or building only to read about 1/2 dozen comments from "concerned citizens" that fall somewhere along the lines of, "Oh no, we can't have it here... it would take away from the rural feel and small town community... not to mention the traffic. Oh the TRAFFIC!"
The point is, that most people who chose to live that far outside of the city made a conscious decision to do so knowing that their commute was going to be longer. I don't really buy the "living close to the city is too expensive" argument either. If you want a single family home with a yard, there are places in communities like Lynn, Medford, Malden, Everett, Winthrop, Brockton, Lowell, etc. that will fit the bill at a good price. Many people are scared off because the fear of crime even though most of the single family home neighborhoods are perfectly safe (but they don't want to hear that). Not to mention, 3 hours in a car each day is infinitely more risky than living in even the worst neighborhood in the state. Schools are a common concern and understandably so. Still, there is no school district in Massachusetts that doesn't provide an opportunity for success to motivated students. Most students are motivated because of strong family support; and as long as that support is there, a student can succeed in any school district. I have plenty of very successful friends who went to public high school in some of the "worst" districts in the state (Fall River, New Bedford, Taunton, Brockton). Of course, there are always private schools if you're not sold.
No, commutes from rural areas and far flung burbs are terrible in most major cities throughout the U.S. If the duration of one's commute is at the point where it's negating the "improved quality of life" of living in the suburbs or rural areas, then the person making the decision to live where they do chose poorly and the blame lies entirely with them.
I do agree on the small suburbs and towns being the beneficiaries of Boston's spending. Most of Eastern MA (definitely just about everything within 495) is a bedroom community from a functionality standpoint. The majority of the people living in those towns have Boston and its economy to thank for their paycheck. The proximity to Boston and jobs makes the towns attractive for Boston works who are looking to "escape" the city and people pay a premium to have a slice of privacy and quiet within commuting distance to Boston. The inflated home values translates to increased revenue for the town and typically improved services. It's how it works in just about every major metro area in the U.S.
I do agree on the small suburbs and towns being the beneficiaries of Boston's spending. Most of Eastern MA (definitely just about everything within 495) is a bedroom community from a functionality standpoint. The majority of the people living in those towns have Boston and its economy to thank for their paycheck. The proximity to Boston and jobs makes the towns attractive for Boston works who are looking to "escape" the city and people pay a premium to have a slice of privacy and quiet within commuting distance to Boston. The inflated home values translates to increased revenue for the town and typically improved services. It's how it works in just about every major metro area in the U.S.
Just for the record, when I was talking about small towns and rural areas paying taxes to support things that they never use, like the big dig, I wasn't talking about EMass suburbia. I don't know of much east of 495 that is rural or small town. I meant places like WMass or the Berkshires where people don't even go to Boston. Ever.
I moved to Worcester County (Leominster-Fitchburg area) from Rochester and the winter is just as bad, the roads are horrible and the taxes are insane.
I also lived in the metro Philly area. Really take a peak at Bucks County or Montgomery County (adjacent to Philly but a world away). The 5 degree difference in warmth makes a world of difference and PA property taxes tend to be lower than NY or MA and you are only 1-2 hrs from friends and family in LI/NY.
Also consider Southern NJ (Cape May- Avalon etc). Gorgeous weather, ocean living like LI and if you are considering MA and have lived in LI/NY the taxes may not be as shocking to you as someone from outside of the Northeast. Not sure about property costs.
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