Population slightly down in MA 2022 (Boston, New Bedford: real estate, rental, salary)

[Lampert]

Originally Posted by timberline742

Again, why are people focusing on the high end, or even the mean or median, when the entire point was entry level. Doesn't make any sense.

Because there is almost none that makes the entry level so it's irrelevant.

When you apply for a job is pretty irrelevant what the base entry level is if you know withing 2-3 years you are going to make double that with overtime.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Lampert

Because there is almost none that makes the entry level so it's irrelevant.

When you apply for a job is pretty irrelevant what the base entry level is if you know withing 2-3 years you are going to make double that with overtime.

That's just wrong. If I'm offered 50k and told in 3-5 years I can make 100k, that doesn't help me. The question is can I live off of 50k now. If I can't, the allure of the potential future is not helpful.

That's the situation across much of Mass. They have a horrible time recruiting and many if not most places are understaffed. The last I read the MEP are at slightly above 50% of their optimal workforce. Why? They can't recruit. The salaries and the costs here don't align.

So yes, it's 100% relevant. You need new recruits. Without them, you're hiring experienced officers from other jurisdictions and just passing off the issue to another municipality (passing the buck). Unless you think there aren't any new officers anywhere? There aren't enough, for sure, but they are out there, and the need to live somewhere.

And, BTW, teachers don't get these details and overtime. People love to skip the relevant points (we weren't just talking about police officers in Boston, but public servants in Massachusetts, especially in low wage but high rent communities (which is why Cape Cod came up) and go off topic, which is what is happening here. Telling a young teacher, yeah, your salary is $45k, but if you become an assistant principal it will be over $120k... wow, big help. I can't live there on $45k, so, no thank you.

I, personally, believe a public servant should be able to afford to live in the community they work to serve. I think that's good public policy. To that end, either the salaries will need to be high enough, or there should be a supply of affordable housing for them, or a mix of the two. Especially true if there are residency requirements. Even more true for public safety personnel that may need to report quickly even when off duty in the face of an emergency.

[Lampert]

Originally Posted by timberline742

That's just wrong. If I'm offered 50k and told in 3-5 years I can make 100k, that doesn't help me. The question is can I live off of 50k now. If I can't, the allure of the potential future is not helpful.

That's the situation across much of Mass. They have a horrible time recruiting and many if not most places are understaffed. The last I read the MEP are at slightly above 50% of their optimal workforce. Why? They can't recruit. The salaries and the costs here don't align.

So yes, it's 100% relevant. You need new recruits. Without them, you're hiring experienced officers from other jurisdictions and just passing off the issue to another municipality (passing the buck).

And, BTW, teachers don't get these details and overtime. People love to skip the relevant points (we weren't just talking about police officers in Boston, but public servants in Massachusetts, especially in low wage but high rent communities (which is why Cape Cod came up) and go off topic, which is what is happening here. Telling a young teacher, yeah, your salary is $45k, but if you become an assistant principal it will be over $120k... wow, big help. I can't live there on $45k, so, no thank you.

There are few employees making less than 50k and most of them aren't police officers but admin and support personnel out of 3,300 people. If you don't take that into account what are you taking into account?
You go to college to make money in the future. You become a police officer to make money in the (very near) future. Even if you have to suffer 2-3 years you do it and then become literally upper middle class. Much better off than most people in Boston.

I didn't talk about teachers. You can check the teachers stats at the link I provided. I was only talking about BPD and BFD.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by Lampert

There are few employees making less than 50k and most of them aren't police officers but admin and support personnel out of 3,300 people. If you don't take that into account what are you taking into account?
You go to college to make money in the future. You become a police officer to make money in the (very near) future. Even if you have to suffer 2-3 years you do it and then become literally upper middle class. Much better off than most people in Boston.

I didn't talk about teachers. You can check the teachers stats at the link I provided. I was only talking about BPD and BFD.

Not at all why I went to college or grad school. I went to learn and do research on science that was of interest to me. And I sure the heck hope people aren't becoming police officers to make money primarily. If that's the case, we're in even worse trouble that I thought.

I explained what I'm taking into account. A place will have trouble attracting new public servants, teachers, fire, police, emergency responders, even administrators and dispatchers, if the salaries doesn't align with the cost of living. In these cases, it very well may be needed to have affordable housing for those people in the community. It's not a challenging concept, I don't believe. Affordable housing being available to these new public service recruits to get through the intro years before they make respectable salaries so they can afford market rates in high COL and relatively low wage areas shouldn't really be controversial, I wouldn't think.

And why are you focusing on just Boston? That's one city out of about 350 municipalities. Boston is high cost, but also high wage. The discussion was more geared to high cost and low wage communities. Sandwich was one example given.

[msRB311]

You're not getting it. A Boston cop can make 100k + their first year if they want to by doing OT and details.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by msRB311

You're not getting it. A Boston cop can make 100k + their first year if they want to by doing OT and details.

I get it fine. I'm just not making crud up and cherry picking data.

Can fire?

Can teachers?

Can dispatchers?

Can the people cleaning parks?

Can janitors in the buildings?

We are talking about public servants, and not just police.

And why are you focusing on just Boston, that's less than 1% of the entire state?

Stop cherry picking outliers, and ones where people need to work 2+ full time jobs to get by. If there was an ounce of intellectural integrity on this forum people would look at their salaries, not their total compensation.

[msRB311]

Overall cops and fire fighters seems like strange examples of people to use in need of affordable housing. When I think of people in need of affordable housing I think of like cashiers at grocery stores, gas station attendants, teacher assistants, maybe janitors but depending where you work they can do alright, waitresses, dental assistants, people working at movie theaters, EMTs.

Maybe a Wellesley cop might need affordable housing in Wellesley but like I said most cops don't want to live in the town they work in. Someone used sandwich, ma as an example. I'm surprised that a cop living in sandwich ma would need affordable housing to live in that area. They must be single. Lots of well paid single people even having trouble finding a house around here.

[bostongymjunkie]

The lowest starting salaries I've seen for municipal police officers is high 50's as a trainee, but with step increases that goes up fast. Degrees can add significantly depending on what degree the person earned. Even most big college cops start minimum high 50's with many in the 60's-70's.

I realize 58-68K isn't a huge salary for this area, but we're talking about entry level personnel and a base salary. When you add other cash benefits (Master's get you 25% more in Quinn Bill cities), differentials for shift work, fitness incentives, sometimes there is roll call pay.... most aren't getting below high 60's excluding details and OT. Even still, I think Boston area departments will need to start upping the ante. It's not going to be enough to recruit quality.

Where you see lower salaries is in smaller, less affluent non-civil service towns like those out western MA. Summer cops on the Cape also don't earn much.

[Beachcomber4]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber4

Interesting. Meanwhile the Cape and Islands have seen a huge population increase.
While towns are making a push for more affordable housing, MDEP is slamming homeowners with new Title V regs. Communities are cracking down on seasonal rentals to alleviate the affordable housing shortage but adding to the waste water issues by trying to force summer home rentals into year round housing. Its a literal

So for those who have gone way off track my comments were specific to one region of the state where the population has increased.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by bostongymjunkie

The lowest starting salaries I've seen for municipal police officers is high 50's as a trainee, but with step increases that goes up fast. Degrees can add significantly depending on what degree the person earned. Even most big college cops start minimum high 50's with many in the 60's-70's.

I realize 58-68K isn't a huge salary for this area, but we're talking about entry level personnel and a base salary. When you add other cash benefits (Master's get you 25% more in Quinn Bill cities), differentials for shift work, fitness incentives, sometimes there is roll call pay.... most aren't getting below high 60's excluding details and OT. Even still, I think Boston area departments will need to start upping the ante. It's not going to be enough to recruit quality.

Where you see lower salaries is in smaller, less affluent non-civil service towns like those out western MA. Summer cops on the Cape also don't earn much.

New Bedford starts at $51k. An extra 5% for an associate degree. 10% for a Bachelor’s. 12.5% for a Masters. That’s real city police work with gangs and violent crime. That’s the lowest pay of the cities south of Boston. $60k is more typical.