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Old 04-21-2013, 06:59 PM
 
39 posts, read 65,035 times
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Well, I'm still not thoroughly satisfied!!!

(I'm not taking umbrage with what YOU'RE saying, though!! I just still think they need to reword that question!!!! The way they have it would seem to imply that some people don't want to experience any change whatsoever in how they feel. And I say if that's what they really wanted, then they'd order the Shirley Temple!!!!!)

I always thought of a 'social drinker' as someone like your friend, but also a bit farther along on the spectrum, as well.
Someone who has one or two -- and who also spaces their drinks out a bit.

As opposed to slamming them down as fast as possible, the way I did, LOLOL!!!!
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Old 04-21-2013, 08:32 PM
 
39 posts, read 65,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
If you quit drinking and your life gets better, don't go to A.A. If you quit drinking and your life is miserable, you can't seem to hit your ass with both hands, aka your life seems to get worse, save your seat in that meeting.
Well, here we go with percentages again, but about how many people who join A.A. have been sober for a really significant length of time when they walk into that first meeting?

All of my knowledge about people who join is anecdotal, from when I belonged to an alcoholism forum.
I didn't read any stories about someone who hadn't taken a drink for a period of years and who then decided that they needed to join A.A. in order to stay sober.

But there were plenty of stories from people who kept repeatedly relapsing within relatively short periods of time and who finally turned to A.A. in a sense of desperation, because nothing they had tried up to that point had worked, when it came to staying sober.

I can think of 3 instances where someone's sobriety lasted 5, 6, and 7 months, respectively, and it was at that point, without resorting to alcohol, that they joined up.

All the rest who posted about their own experiences were anywhere from not being able to even get through a day without breaking down and giving in to drinking to going a matter of a few months and then usually going back to drinking on a daily basis for at least a few weeks and other times for a few months.
And then it was wash, rinse, repeat.

My life didn't get rosy as soon as I quit drinking. Or because I quit drinking.
In fact, outside of some improvement in my overall health, my life sucked more than ever. And still does, in many ways.
I still had to get over my divorce and rebuild my life.
And it was in the middle of that when my father started suffering dementia.
My mother doesn't drive, so I had to take over hauling everyone everywhere, taking care of my developmentally disabled son, my senile father, my 98 year old, blind grandmother, and my mother whose health is failing.

Anyone out there ever been put into the role of 'caretaker'?
It's no picnic.
Things got easier when my father died. (Anyone who's lost someone to dementia knows that by the time the person actually dies, you feel more relief than anything else. As they slip away from you, they cease to be themselves and you sort of mourn their loss as it goes along and you're pretty much just glad they're out of their situation by the time death comes.)

About 6 months after that, my grandmother became senile. Again, whatever needed doing fell to me.
And though her mind was going, physically she stayed in really good shape and lived to be 102. Would have been more of a blessing for both her and for the rest of us if she hadn't lived quite so long. Not in the mental shape she was in.

And now my 84 year old mother is becoming senile and dying from Diabetes, kidney failure and all the other crap that goes wrong with you when you're in that condition.
And she's belligerent and paranoid and thinks that I'm trying to bully her and pick fights with her when I'm trying as hard as I can to not upset her.

I want desperately to escape all this unrelenting pressure.
But drinking is not an option. I've taken that off the table.

I quit drinking more times than I can count.
I quit every day. And failed every day. For day, for weeks, for months, for years.
I didn't just decide 'I'm not going to drink anymore' and then stop.
Drinking DID make all this kind of crap better -- for about 3 hours or until however long it took me to pass out.

My 'life' isn't better now that I've quit drinking.
But 'I'M' better off than when I was drinking.

It's rather insulting to be told that all I've gone through, am going through, and worked so hard to attain and sustain is less of a 'problem' for me than it is for those who chose A.A. and found success through that venue.
But then, that's if one assumes that anyone who successfully quits on their own has a better life.

My life isn't better. I have a chronic mental illness, I've recently been diagnosed with Stage 3 CKD and am being tested for what looks like Lupus, am anemic, and have a severe Vitamin D insufficiency (upgraded from being a severe Vitamin D DEficiency, Woo Hoo!!!)
My daughter has just been diagnosed with what is hopefully 'only' Sjogren's Disease and is having a difficult time of things.
And my 31 year old, autistic son can't talk and will never be able to live on his own.

My life sucks right now.
But I still choose not to drink.
And to anyone who says that just proves the point and I'm obviously not an alcoholic, well, I just find that incredibly dismissive and disrespectful.

I would never say that the members of A.A. aren't really alcoholics, since they aren't drinking.
Nor would I say that about any other methods that people say worked for them.

(Maybe not even the Malibu Passages guy, although I still laugh every time he says he was an addict; now he's not!! LOL!!!)
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:16 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,930 posts, read 27,339,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
My life didn't get rosy as soon as I quit drinking. Or because I quit drinking.
In fact, outside of some improvement in my overall health, my life sucked more than ever. And still does, in many ways.
So this has to do with booze or the lack thereof... or no?

Are you speaking of an internal condition which needs work? Do you need the world to change in order for you to be ok or can you get to that point on your own? Under your own "power"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
Anyone out there ever been put into the role of 'caretaker'?
My mom has macular degeneration and is a recent lung cancer survivor, my dad was driving to his 45 radiation treatments for his prostate cancer when he had a fender bender with my mom's car, so I had to start driving him and my mom places when they needed and I could.

My oldest brother, who's a paranoid schizophrenic died at the end of January and my mom was devastated.

Yeah, I did the Caretaker circuit a bit so far this year. I hear ya.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
It's rather insulting to be told that all I've gone through, am going through, and worked so hard to attain and sustain is less of a 'problem' for me than it is for those who chose A.A. and found success through that venue.
Waa. Save the drama for your mamma? I don't know what to tell you. Whether you're an alcoholic or not has nothing to do with circumstances. How you chose to get and stay sober is A-ok with me.

I've made a pact with the anti/exAAers of the world in this; there's no wrong way to get and stay sober.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
My life isn't better. I have a chronic mental illness, I've recently been diagnosed with Stage 3 CKD and am being tested for what looks like Lupus, am anemic, and have a severe Vitamin D insufficiency (upgraded from being a severe Vitamin D DEficiency, Woo Hoo!!!)
My daughter has just been diagnosed with what is hopefully 'only' Sjogren's Disease and is having a difficult time of things.
And my 31 year old, autistic son can't talk and will never be able to live on his own.

My life sucks right now.
But I still choose not to drink.
Wow, I'm sorry you're going through all of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
And to anyone who says that just proves the point and I'm obviously not an alcoholic, well, I just find that incredibly dismissive and disrespectful.

I would never say that the members of A.A. aren't really alcoholics, since they aren't drinking.
Nor would I say that about any other methods that people say worked for them.
Well, I don't know what to say to you, except to say, "You really are entitled to your pain." Have at it. If you want to be an alcoholic, then be one. We won't take that from you, really.

But don't expect A.A. to solve all of your living problems.

The only thing we can help you with in A.A. is to determine whether or not you're an alcoholic, whether or not you're ready and willing to quit for good, and whether or not you're ready to follow a few simple rules in order to get to a place where your life is worth living, you are happy and you don't want to drink booze to feel better.

In A.A., we come from the place that "Our problems are of our own making." Is this where you are at? If not, we can't help you. Others perhaps can.

Last edited by McGowdog; 04-21-2013 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:35 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,713,193 times
Reputation: 2377
Quote:
To Eulenspiegel:
You certainly have a lot on your plate. I will repeat what I said in my last post: The only person who can call you an alcoholic is you. If you do then I have no questions about your diagnosis. Most of the posts on this and other alcohol threads are from people who question their condition or want to know if they are alcoholic or claim they aren't because they just quit by their own human powers. That is the difference between them and you, and that is why you may encounter skepticism even though, sometimes it may be mis-directed.
Percentages are irrelevant to anyone who has found their solution. I know what works for me and that is all that matters.
I can only offer my own experience, strength and hope to others - and hopefully it will help them find their path to recovery. If not, it sure as heck helped me. In fact, I get a natural high when I see the light switch go on for others.
There are people in AA who after 20, 25, 30 or more years go back out and die or go nuts. No guarantees come with abstinence.
There are , in fact, people who stop for months, a year or two or even longer and then binge. You have heard of the periodic types of alky's, I'm sure. These chronic relapsers either came back and stayed, died or found another solution so any definitive statistical reports are difficult to track.
I can report that thru my sober years I have had some very bad times. Loss of a 12 year old daughter. Loss of 2 careers, two marriages, 2 parents, etc. But I am greatful for the people in AA who stood beside me in those dark hours of agony and suffering. I'm not trying to compare scars, just saying that life comes at all of us - drunk or sober. I have had my share of good times, too. But when I look back I can see that with AA and sobriety over any considerable lengths of time my life has got better not worse. You have my sincere wishes that the same will come to pass for you.............
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:55 AM
 
Location: So Ca
26,636 posts, read 26,559,630 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
A.A. works for a lot of people. (And there's plenty of other ways, and they work for other people. And for some poor, wretched souls, nothing works or they never even try to stop and they waste their lives and sometimes come to a sorry end.)
You're right. AA is probably the most successful program, but I agree that it doesn't work for everyone. I posted this on an older thread about interventions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
While our friend's mother went into the inpatient program, stopped drinking and joined AA for life, our family member refused inpatient treatment, tried to stop drinking on his own--unsuccessfully--and would not attend an AA meeting.

Years later in my own counseling, I realized that AA doesn't work for every alcoholic, and that there are different types of alcoholics, only 40% of whom are in the general alcoholic category. The twelve step program is best suited to general alcoholics, those who have a substance abuse disorder only. In addition, there are personality types who will never believe that they are powerless over anything, and if they can't admit or believe this, they can't work the rest of the steps.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: The 719
17,930 posts, read 27,339,625 times
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A.A. has become the Recovery Quarterback, it seems to me.

What I mean by that is, A.A. gets all the credit when things go well and all the credit when things go south.

Let's say someone goes to A.A. and sobers up and lives happily for years. Then after 10 years, they drink again and they die. A.A. failure, right?

Now let's say a person goes to rehab and extensive outpatient... insurance covers it... they get and stay sober for 10 years and then they drink again. Are they entitled to a refund? Oh of course not. They chose to drink. Why didn't they chose to not drink prior to rehab?

I think the anti/exAAers will agree with me that too many folks are sending people to A.A.

The courts do it and why? Not because A.A. tells them to. There's such a thing as CPC (cooperation with the professional community) work and PI (public information) work that A.A. does to "try to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers".

A.A.doesn't just go to judges cops lawyers parole/probation officers and say, "Send us your drunks, addicts, rapists, child molesters, domestic violence offenders, thieves, murderers, bums, and unwed mothers with ptsd."

No. You treatment center and medical and law enforcement folks do that when you cram down our throats some garbage about how 92% of criminals in incarceration had been drinking or high on drugs during the time of their offense.

So they must be alcoholic. Send them to A.A.

That'll fix em'. And if it don't ...
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:04 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,713,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowdog View Post
A.A. has become the Recovery Quarterback, it seems to me.

What I mean by that is, A.A. gets all the credit when things go well and all the credit when things go south.

Let's say someone goes to A.A. and sobers up and lives happily for years. Then after 10 years, they drink again and they die. A.A. failure, right?

Now let's say a person goes to rehab and extensive outpatient... insurance covers it... they get and stay sober for 10 years and then they drink again. Are they entitled to a refund? Oh of course not. They chose to drink. Why didn't they chose to not drink prior to rehab?

I think the anti/exAAers will agree with me that too many folks are sending people to A.A.

The courts do it and why? Not because A.A. tells them to. There's such a thing as CPC (cooperation with the professional community) work and PI (public information) work that A.A. does to "try to carry the message to the alcoholic who still suffers".

A.A.doesn't just go to judges cops lawyers parole/probation officers and say, "Send us your drunks, addicts, rapists, child molesters, domestic violence offenders, thieves, murderers, bums, and unwed mothers with ptsd."

No. You treatment center and medical and law enforcement folks do that when you cram down our throats some garbage about how 92% of criminals in incarceration had been drinking or high on drugs during the time of their offense.

So they must be alcoholic. Send them to A.A.

That'll fix em'. And if it don't ...
That reminds me of one of my early meetings in Los Angeles . There was a hospital nearby that used to bring in about 20 inpatient re-habbers to our AA meeting. Keep in mind these people were paying about
$20K each for their in-patient program - or their employee insurance was paying.

So their keeper usually strolls in with his group who immediately head for the coffee table and fill their cups to the brim while taking a jelly doughnut or two at the same time, but when the 7th. Tradition basket was passed nary a cent was dropped in by the honcho or his crew. They did this every week for about a month.

Finally, one of the crusty old timers goes over to the head honcho and says "Look pal, our 7th. Tradition states that we are self-supporting thru our own contributions. Every week you bring your people in here and scarf up our coffee and doughnuts and don't drop one red cent into the basket. You charge these people a big chunk of change to give them what we give for free. If you want to participate in this group, from now on you can start dropping a buck in the basket for each person you bring to pay for their coffee and doughnuts."

That was the last we saw of them - cheapskates.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:44 PM
 
39 posts, read 65,035 times
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"So this has to do with booze or the lack thereof... or no?

Are you speaking of an internal condition which needs work? Do you need the world to change in order for you to be ok or can you get to that point on your own? Under your own "power"?"


LOL!!!! No!! It has nothing to do with booze or the lack thereof!!!
I don't need the world to change for me!!!!
I'm not whining about any of it and actually have never tallied it up like this before!!
I only laid all that stressful stuff here in response to your (McGowdog's) statement that ..........

"If you quit drinking and your life gets better, don't go to A.A. If you quit drinking and your life is miserable, you can't seem to hit your ass with both hands, aka your life seems to get worse, save your seat in that meeting."

That is not the case, for me.

I quit drinking. Life didn't get better. Life got worse. (And there's no light at the end of the tunnel yet, LOL!!!)
But I didn't start drinking.

And I hope you notice that I've been speaking favorably of A.A. throughout this thread, when it comes to being what works for some people!!!
I have never been under the impression that A.A. solves all the problems someone has in their life!!
Or changes them in any way other than helping the person change in ways that perhaps better choices and better actions and better behaviors will result in their life situation becoming better!!!


@ Pawporri --

Loss of a child is one of the hardest things that I can imagine anyone going through.
I'm so very sorry for your loss.
(((((Hugs)))))
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:46 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,074 posts, read 4,713,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post

And I hope you notice that I've been speaking favorably of A.A. throughout this thread, when it comes to being what works for some people!!!
I have never been under the impression that A.A. solves all the problems someone has in their life!!
Or changes them in any way other than helping the person change in ways that perhaps better choices and better actions and better behaviors will result in their life situation becoming better!!!


@ Pawporri --

Loss of a child is one of the hardest things that I can imagine anyone going through.
I'm so very sorry for your loss.
(((((Hugs)))))
Thanks and hugs to you for what you are dealing with regarding your loved ones. I was fortunate enough to meet a doctor involved in the program who had developed a "Grief Work" paradigm that enabled me to work through the loss in a very effective manner. His model incorporated the loss and grief alcoholics suffer when they are faced with abstinence from booze. He believed such a loss to be as devastating as the loss of a loved one by regular "Earth" people. On that basis he outlined a series of emotional patterns and steps that could be quantitavely applied as a modality providing more effective recovery than just floundering through grief. Thus, I was able to know that the emotions & feelings I was experiencing were cyclic and it was important to work thru them as they came at me so as to reach a state of comfortable acceptance and end the cycle.. And, yes, time does heal but it can be shortened considerably if one performs the "grief work" treatment program.

Your summation is correct, IMO. I like the short version = "If you want to feel right, then you should act right."

That is why, IMO, that life got better in sobriety, for me. Drinking definitely clouded my judgement when life's problems came at me and led to my poor decisions & bad outcomes.
It is also true that bad things happen, no matter how hard we try not to hurt others because we cannot control their actions, even if we want the best for them.


I try to look at life's uncertainties and vicissitudes in this way:

Is courage something I strive to attain? - Then I will need to grapple in an environment which necessitates hardship and disappointment.

Is altruism something I want to incorporate in my personality? - Then must I encounter and observe situations of social inequality.

Is hope desirable ? - Then I must constatntly face life's insecurities and uncertainties.

To acquire faith I had to take Step 3 - Knowing that I was in that troublesome predicament where I knew less than what I believed. That was my beginning. Before I was an agnostic - today I am not.

Do I want to learn truth even when it can be difficult to face ? - Then I must have to grow up (even now) in a world where error is present and falsehood is always possible, ie. the world ain't perfect.

Did I want to learn how to appreciate loyalty and give it to others close to me ? - Then I had to learn about betrayal and desertion and that devotion to another consists in the implied danger of default by those I trust.

Did I want to seek and know pleasure (What I thought booze was giving me)? - Then I had to live life as an alcoholic and realize that the alternative was pain and suffering as ever- present experiential realities of my condition. That is why life as a recovered alcoholic is so precious to me.

It wasn't until I performed a searching and fearless moral inventory of my character defects (4th. Step) that I realized my drinking was but a sympton of my underlying illness and that until I addressed these defects and worked to change them my life would only get more and more miserable, with or without booze. The 4th. Step also allowed me to ease up on myself as I learned that the harder I was in judging others the harder I really was on myself. The most consoling statement I have heard in AA, and has dwelled in my heart all these years is that "We strive for progress rather than perfection !"
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:47 PM
 
Location: The 719
17,930 posts, read 27,339,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eulenspiegel View Post
That is not the case, for me.

I quit drinking. Life didn't get better. Life got worse. (And there's no light at the end of the tunnel yet, LOL!!!)
But I didn't start drinking.
Well then as you know, there's things you can do to at least clean off your side of the street.

Here's what I do... I do the steps. The real meat and potatos part of it is steps 4 through 9. Until you get that done, the growth steps 10 and 11 and 12 cannot effectively be practiced. When's the last time you did 4 through 9?
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