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That's pretty much what "race" means too. A particular group of people. "Whites" have just as much variety or more than "Latins". So do blacks. There are actually no distinct races.
"La Raza" as it is used in the USA is very exclusionary. They do not include black or white or other non-Latino Americans, they do not work for the benefit of all people, only one group. "Todos" or "todo el mundo" would include all people.
Its kind of a complicated thing malamute. For one, this is a phrase that is recognized only in Mexico, that I know of. I dont think any other Latin American country uses it. So when you attach it to the organization, some people think that it is exclusive for Mexicans, which it is not.
Another thing is that many people read the news too much and in the media, all you hear is that phrase connected to this one organization. Well, the phrase was used by Mexicans in the US prior to the organization using it for it's own.
I have heard Mexicans or Latinos use it, outside any type of organization, as "la raza" to signify, anyone in the gang. When a Mexican wants to be specific about just our ethnicity, you will hear them say, "la raza Mexicana". My group of friends includes people from different ethnic backgrounds, including some Africans or African Americans. We say, "la raza" and they perfectly understand we mean, ALL of us.
Its a mistake to associate the phrase with the organization. They dont own it. The fact that they use it and the organization is a Latino advocacy group makes people think it is a racist thing. If someone like, per say, aztlan would use it, I would say they have misunderstood the meaning of it and they are misusing it.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
3,162 posts, read 11,436,372 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zacatecana
Its kind of a complicated thing malamute. For one, this is a phrase that is recognized only in Mexico, that I know of. I dont think any other Latin American country uses it. So when you attach it to the organization, some people think that it is exclusive for Mexicans, which it is not.
Another thing is that many people read the news too much and in the media, all you hear is that phrase connected to this one organization. Well, the phrase was used by Mexicans in the US prior to the organization using it for it's own.
I have heard Mexicans or Latinos use it, outside any type of organization, as "la raza" to signify, anyone in the gang. When a Mexican wants to be specific about just our ethnicity, you will hear them say, "la raza Mexicana". My group of friends includes people from different ethnic backgrounds, including some Africans or African Americans. We say, "la raza" and they perfectly understand we mean, ALL of us.
Its a mistake to associate the phrase with the organization. They dont own it. The fact that they use it and the organization is a Latino advocacy group makes people think it is a racist thing. If someone like, per say, aztlan would use it, I would say they have misunderstood the meaning of it and they are misusing it.
But what's la raza mexicana? there is not a mexican race, Mexican is a nationality. there is a Mexican people though, but there are differences between them depending on the state, there is also differences between Mexicanos and Chicanos. Some Chicanos consider themselves Mexicans, others Americans with Mexican heritage, it's a never ending story
But what's la raza mexicana? there is not a mexican race, Mexican is a nationality. there is a Mexican people though, but there are differences between them depending on the state, there is also differences between Mexicanos and Chicanos. Some Chicanos consider themselves Mexicans, others Americans with Mexican heritage, it's a never ending story
That question is what it boils down to - I can see if someone in Mexico refers to "la raza" as a way to say "the people", it could mean that. In the USA it would be more used to imply there is a race/breed/ethnicity of Mexican or Latino people when in fact like you say, Mexican is a citizen of a country called Mexico. A Mexican can be lily white, brown, of Chinese or German or Polish descent, black and any kind of mix.
To lump Mexican citizens in with citizens of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Argentina and Peru gets to be even stranger. They don't all have the same cultures and histories.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
That question is what it boils down to - I can see if someone in Mexico refers to "la raza" as a way to say "the people", it could mean that. In the USA it would be more used to imply there is a race/breed/ethnicity of Mexican or Latino people when in fact like you say, Mexican is a citizen of a country called Mexico. A Mexican can be lily white, brown, of Chinese or German or Polish descent, black and any kind of mix.
To lump Mexican citizens in with citizens of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Argentina and Peru gets to be even stranger. They don't all have the same cultures and histories.
Yes but somehow, in a weird way, "hispanics" mix much better in Spain than in the USA, perhaps because of the shared language and culture, I found this weird.
Yes but somehow, in a weird way, "hispanics" mix much better in Spain than in the USA, perhaps because of the shared language and culture, I found this weird.
"Hispanic" is a clumsy, nearly-meaningless term, made up to deal with the hyper-sensitive state of ethnicity in the USA, and the concept of 'ethnic rights', 'ethnic privilege', 'profiling', etc etc etc. You can't "profile" unless you have someone to profile..and thus 'Hispanic' fits the need. It's silly..most people KNOW this...and see how awkward the term is...but it persists, and has taken on a life of its own.
Even MORE clumsy....(so clumsy, in fact, that today it's rarely used) is the old 1960's favorite, "People of Color". No one in his right mind would try to give an example of a 'People of Color' cultural attribute...or a 'People of Color' cuisine..or a 'People of Color' social goal. The term is SO artificial, and SO unwieldy, that even the sociologists don't use it anymore.
Perhaps the day will come when 'Hispanic' becomes obsolete, as well. In my opinion, the term is pretty close to meaningless. Let's hope it DOES go out of use, before 'The Hispanics Take Over America', as a recent thread suggested. THAT would be something to see.
What would "Viva La Raza" mean, then, in the context of a political meeting or rally? I live in San Antonio, TX. During the Hillary Clinton rally here, before the elections, everyone was chanting "Viva La Raza". Being the confused white girl that I am, I didn't get the meaning within that context. I mean yes, I understood literally the translation, but couldn't figure out why everyone was chanting it.
Oh and FWIW, in my city, about 58% of the population is classified as "Hispanic" (not my word, so don't smack me!)....
"La raza" has nothing to do with race. It refers to "the people" and perhaps more specifically, "the masses" or those without aristocracy. Such is what I would expect in Mexico. I would imagine is started as perhaps the indios + mestizos + mulattos...the mixed...although this has since expanded to all those without power and aristocracy.
In bringing it over to the US, its meaning fragments and is currently in flux. For some, it would refer to the masses with whom the person identifies (illegal to otehr illegals). For some it would be to Chicanos only. For others all those of Mexican descent. For a much smaller population (well traveled and educated), all Latinos. While it would be perfectly consistent to use it for the masses across all racial groups, I think it would be odd. Maybe in a couple of generations when there is more commonality of experience and integration.
Its use and abuse in media shouting and amongst race baiters is almost comical were it not so hate-filled. Again, the term has nothing to do with racial exclusion. It has to do with the common experience and commonality of trials & tribulations. However, in the face of race-baiting, I can see it being used as racial defense as a reaction...
That question is what it boils down to - I can see if someone in Mexico refers to "la raza" as a way to say "the people", it could mean that. In the USA it would be more used to imply there is a race/breed/ethnicity of Mexican or Latino people when in fact like you say, Mexican is a citizen of a country called Mexico. A Mexican can be lily white, brown, of Chinese or German or Polish descent, black and any kind of mix.
To lump Mexican citizens in with citizens of Cuba, Puerto Rico, Argentina and Peru gets to be even stranger. They don't all have the same cultures and histories.
It's not at all strange. People lump Europeans together as well as Africans and some Asians. Also, Mexican is not just a nationality, it can also be a culture and an ethnicity. So what if this Latino organization uses it within the same definition as Mexicans. Remember it is a mixed Latin American countries in one organization. It is surely going to borrow one thing here and there from each country. These members have the right to be apart of a joint latin country organization and dont necesarily have to go with one specifically for their own country. Also remember that NCLR advocates for legalization of immigrants, whom a large portion of that number are Mexican nationals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelling fella
But what's la raza mexicana? there is not a mexican race, Mexican is a nationality. there is a Mexican people though, but there are differences between them depending on the state, there is also differences between Mexicanos and Chicanos. Some Chicanos consider themselves Mexicans, others Americans with Mexican heritage, it's a never ending story
Why are you being literally PC for the use of the phrase in the US but it is okay for people to use it in Mexico as what we all have described? Okay, lets be clear about something here. NOT ALL Hispanics think the same! Not all Mexican Americans think the same! How many Mexican Americans do you know?
I think you both are making big generalizations. Mexican Americans are a big group and while some have been here since the west became part of the US, others migrated in the 1920's, 1940's, 1960's and the more recent immigrant waves. A Mexican American like me, who has been raised on both sides, is not going to think the same as a Mexican American who is first generation American and has only visited once or twice in his/her life time. That person is not going to think the same as one who has been here as a 2nd generation American born, nor will the same experiences be for someone has been here 5 generations.
Secondly, not every Mexican American belongs to the same racist organizations such as Aztlan.
Third, not all Mexican Americans belong one Mexican American organization and not all organizations are limited to Mexican Americans. Many have Mexican members. Each organization may use the phrase differently. While some use it literally, others use it the same way Mexicans would use it.
Therefore, it is a mistake to lump ALL Mexican Americans together in one group and think that they are all confused about their ethnicity and that they all think they are ONE RACE!
Its simple...Take each person as an individual and dont assume that because they are Mexican American, they think they are a race. Take each organization as an individual group and dont assume that they all advocate for a race!
That's pretty much what "race" means too. A particular group of people. "Whites" have just as much variety or more than "Latins". So do blacks. There are actually no distinct races.
"La Raza" as it is used in the USA is very exclusionary. They do not include black or white or other non-Latino Americans, they do not work for the benefit of all people, only one group. "Todos" or "todo el mundo" would include all people.
la raza here in practice refers to Mestizos----------'fullblood' Anglo Whites, Blacks, etc. need not apply with the possible exception of White Spaniards.
"Hispanic" is a clumsy, nearly-meaningless term, made up to deal with the hyper-sensitive state of ethnicity in the USA, and the concept of 'ethnic rights', 'ethnic privilege', 'profiling', etc etc etc. You can't "profile" unless you have someone to profile..and thus 'Hispanic' fits the need. It's silly..most people KNOW this...and see how awkward the term is...but it persists, and has taken on a life of its own.
Even MORE clumsy....(so clumsy, in fact, that today it's rarely used) is the old 1960's favorite, "People of Color". No one in his right mind would try to give an example of a 'People of Color' cultural attribute...or a 'People of Color' cuisine..or a 'People of Color' social goal. The term is SO artificial, and SO unwieldy, that even the sociologists don't use it anymore.
Perhaps the day will come when 'Hispanic' becomes obsolete, as well. In my opinion, the term is pretty close to meaningless. Let's hope it DOES go out of use, before 'The Hispanics Take Over America', as a recent thread suggested. THAT would be something to see.
No joke there:
An Englishman of partial or full Spanish, Mestizo Mexican, etc. lineage would be counted as an Anglo here in the USA not a Hispanic.
Some years ago the British actor Alfred Molina (Spanish father) caught some flak from a 'Hispanic' advocacy group for portraying the padre in the movie 'the Perez Family'. Seems that said Latinos perceived Molina as an Anglo White.
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