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I believe that border control is a necesity, either the Mexican government get serious and starts to do something with the problems that we face as a nation, or something will happen, unfortunately the "leaders" of Mexico, those who have the power to make laws and enforce them have the congress kidnapped by their own interests as well as corporate interests.
The border area is a problem. One reason I believe the mastermind of the student massacre was an El Pasoan is that the cartel benefits by the border and it controls cross border crime because the law enforcement of neither country can control cross border crime too well.
Back when the deaths of Juarez women was an issue, many in Juarez believed the killers lived in El Paso and very likely many did and that's what helped them avoid detection. Rape and kill - and then head back to El Paso before the police show up.
Just like stolen vehicles would be taken quickly over to Juarez from El Paso, making it impossible for the law enforcement in El Paso to arrest the thieves, the same thing can happen for the Mexican law enforcement.
The police of both sides must stop at the border, there is no hot pursuit allowed yet the criminals can pass back and forth as they please.
I'm surprised at the apparent lack of outrage that it turned out a USA citizen born and raised in El Paso went over there and masterminded not only the slaughter of the students but also wiped out 4 people in the nightclub during the same time period -- and has most likely carried out many executions in Juarez.
Location: The world, where will fate take me this time?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
The border area is a problem. One reason I believe the mastermind of the student massacre was an El Pasoan is that the cartel benefits by the border and it controls cross border crime because the law enforcement of neither country can control cross border crime too well.
Back when the deaths of Juarez women was an issue, many in Juarez believed the killers lived in El Paso and very likely many did and that's what helped them avoid detection. Rape and kill - and then head back to El Paso before the police show up.
Just like stolen vehicles would be taken quickly over to Juarez from El Paso, making it impossible for the law enforcement in El Paso to arrest the thieves, the same thing can happen for the Mexican law enforcement.
The police of both sides must stop at the border, there is no hot pursuit allowed yet the criminals can pass back and forth as they please.
I'm surprised at the apparent lack of outrage that it turned out a USA citizen born and raised in El Paso went over there and masterminded not only the slaughter of the students but also wiped out 4 people in the nightclub during the same time period -- and has most likely carried out many executions in Juarez.
Hmmmm I wonder why there haven't been any references about an el pasoan being the mastermind of these horrid acts in the national news, perhaps that could help explain that there hasn't been an outrage about this. Yet I have to tell you that people in Juarez is enraged, in fear despair and hopelessness if you've been watching the national news you'll know about that, the president just went over there together with the mexican equivalent of vicepresident (Secretario de Gobernación) and people got really carried away when they saw them, they told him, that the people of Juarez don't want more hollow promises but results.
Unfortunately my dear friend, what can we the citizens of our countries do? some are trapped in a hollow debate about immigration, while others are too concerned with the domestic problems of both countries, yet few people actually have the initiative to do something that would revert the current situation.
The truth is that we the citizens of both countries are kidnapped by our governments and their interests, our governments represent the interests and wishes of the rich and powerful they are there to serve them not us, and this is the root of many of the problems we face now, domestic, binational and global.
I still believe that this war on drugs is stupid and nonsensical, so far statistics have proven that violence has increased tenfold since the stupid decision of bringing the army to border cities in hope of eradicating the cartels, everybody knows that if you want to hit the organized crime you need to attack them financially because if you use force you'll have 3 new leaders who will be more vicious and ruthless than the one that was just captured/killed, yet our governments appear unsensitive to the grave hardships and suffering people face with this strategy.
The US government constantly blames Mexico for human rights and civil liberties violations and threathens to reduce their support on this war of drugs, which is miserable compared to the funding and support the wars in afghanistan and iraq receive, yet Mexico is much nearer to the USA than those countries so the threat of the cartels is much more real and tangible than "terrorists" but at the same time, they demand results, and it is no secret that drugs remain illegal worldwide because of US pressure, yet prohibition has been a dismal failure.
On the other hand the Mexican government, instead of really doing something about all of this violence, they stupidly believe that more troops will solve the problem, the truth is that they only do mediatical acts that contribute little to the eradication of these social problems and then forget about them. This is very similar to what the American government does with illegal immigration, they grab and deport 300 illegals and advertise it all around like if it was the hit of the century, while the numbers of illegals keep swelling.
Both problems have their roots in the same source, corruption, who's benefiting from drugs being illegal? and who's benefiting from human traficking and lax regulations and border control?
Unfortunately many people have been fed with BS about drugs that legalizing them would face opposition from the big majority of the population, but if you ask someone who's facing the escalating violence he might give a second thought to this idea, after all we've tried several methods to eradicate drug violence and all of them have been a dismal failure over the years, perhaps an alternative response is worth a shot?
Those in power know that if we continue dividing each other by nationalities, opinions, points of view, nobody will have the strenght to challenge this status quo, and so far the strategy has worked really well. We the middle class, the citizens of the countries continue being screwed.
I keep wondering when the light of unity, harmony and understanding will dissipate the darkness of selfishness, quarreling and anarchy it will someday, but will it be because we did something about it? or perhaps our children, or our grandchildren.
So far we continue blaming each other and trying to segregate from others instead of working together, for a lot of people the idea of sleeping with the "enemy" is taboo.
Yes it is a pipe dream but imagine if the illegals and legals stopped quarreling and worked together to solve the immigration issue, or if citizens from Mexico and the USA worked together to solve the border violence and many other binational issues, this could be a different world, and like John Lennon Said:
you may say I'm a dreamer
but I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one.
Gtacias, Traveling Fella, Very accurate and touching appraisal of the situation that is hurting both our countries... If only governments would listen to the people they are supposed to represent..
Hmmmm I wonder why there haven't been any references about an el pasoan being the mastermind of these horrid acts in the national news, perhaps that could help explain that there hasn't been an outrage about this. Yet I have to tell you that people in Juarez is enraged, in fear despair and hopelessness if you've been watching the national news you'll know about that, the president just went over there together with the mexican equivalent of vicepresident (Secretario de Gobernación) and people got really carried away when they saw them, they told him, that the people of Juarez don't want more hollow promises but results.
Well -- it is in the news but no one seems to care really.
An El Paso man killed by Mexican soldiers in a shootout on Monday was the mastermind behind the massacre of 16 people at a birthday party over the weekend in Juárez, federal officials said Tuesday night.
De acuerdo a registros del sistema AFIS, RamÃrez habÃa cometido un delito federal el 15 de abril de 2007, y en los archivos policiacos se le ubicó un domicilio en El Paso.
As far as drugs -- apparently the students killed in the massacre were not smuggling drugs into the USA so I'm not sure drugs is all it's about.
Rumor has it - but not from official news sources that a couple of them were extorting money from Juarez businesses and individuals, so it may possibly have something to do with extortion but there's no good evidence any of the students were running drugs.
FOX News...That's a reliable source for "facts" LMAO
Rather than a meaningless generic statement, how about picking out some of the details in the article that you believe are incorrect and demonstrate this. Are you alleging that the persons quoted in the article did not say what they are quoted as saying? Are you alleging that the numbers provided by U.S. and Mexican officials are not true? Is there any specific fact at all in there that you can disprove? I thought not...
Travelling Fella is voicing a dream I share. If only we could bring this dream to reality long enough to stop the murders in Juarez.
I'm afraid I have to agree with the unreliability of FOX news, but I would be hard pressed to prove just who is providing the weapons in Juarez. Due to the proximity of the US, the fact that the US is the chief consumer of drugs, and considering the logic and relative convenience of trading illegal arms for illegal drugs, I can't fight thinking how likely it is that most of the arms are provided by the US. The nation manufacturing the arms was never at issue. Of course, I have to admit that I would certainly not be shocked to find that the source of some arms was the Mexican Army. I think it's preposterous to suggest that the Mexican Army intentionally armed the citizenry, but undoubtedly some arms have been stolen or illicitly sold.
The only reason I would bring this up at all is to belabor the rather obvious point that it takes two to tango. The US should not put up a front of basking in bewildered innocence, as though the actions of US citizens had no impact on the affairs of Mexico. As long as there is a market for drugs, drugs will be sold. As long as that market is illegal. drugs will be sold illegally. If you buy drugs, you are part of the drug war, WHETHER OR NOT you provide the arms.
If, in fact, the leader of the day in the attack that recently killed the kids in Juarez was from El Paso, this is no reflection of the character of either nation. It should not get us into these goofy discussions about which nation is populated by "good guys" and which nation is populated by "bad guys." People can walk back and forth from El Paso and Juarez. Being on one side of the bridge or the other does not make these pedestrians either virtuous or demonic.
Doubting that some guns enter Mexico from the US is a bit like doubting that drugs enter the US from Mexico. I just don't see that there is much to talk about. Doubting that "bad guys" live on both sides of the bridges and cross back and forth seems equally loco to me.
I'm happy to see that the last few posts indicate that there is some moving away from positions totally defensive or totally offensive of either nation. Stopping the violence is not a contest of national virtues.
I think Travelling Fella has the right idea. Legalize and control the drugs. The war on drugs has been seen as a failure by all nations except the US - and, oddly enough, Mexico, where the war's failure has taken such a horrible toll.
Unfortunately, I have had no personal success in getting agreement on the issue. The most common problem I run into is that people think my suggestion of decriminalizing the activity somehow constitutes advocacy of drug consumption. Sorry, but I really don't much care what other people do, so long as they aren't killing each other, and so long as I am not one of the moving targets. When the actions of other people turn me into a moving target, I learn to care what they are doing. Otherwise, whatever you do, whether or not I like it, is none of my business.
The agony I face is this: Even if people come around and figure out that the war on drugs is a bloody waste of time, money, and life, the process will take so long that I will have to continue to dodge bullets and lose friends and loved ones for a very long time.
I am on the edge of seeing that it is no longer worth the trouble of living in Juarez. (I catch on quick, don't I?) I entered these forums with a sense of urgency. Then, I had to go through the endless discussions of how the US is better, richer, more virtuous, and so on. While those of you in the US were being better, richer, and more virtuous, I have lost one close friend and a family member. And that doesn't make a dent in the 3,000 or so who have actually been killed. I'm tired of listening for gunfire before I cross the street to buy groceries.
And the discussions of the origin of the arms seems less relevant by the second.
Chuy, now that you are resting in peace, you'll be glad to know that the gun that shot you may not have originated in El Paso. A thought that certainly brightens my day.
Diver Todd asks us to disprove what we hear from newscasters. In this particular case, Fox news is in question. Well, I feel quite certain that NO numbers reported in Juarez are accurate, ranging from the population figures to the number of casualties and deaths resulting from the drug wars. Can I prove that? No. Unless somebody wants to walk around with me through Juarez counting the citizens and counting the graves, I'll have to leave my doubts in the realm of strong suspicions.
I suppose it all depends on how rigorous we want the standards of our proof. In fact, unless Diver Todd has been purchasing drugs in Juarez, he could not really "prove" that drugs pass this way. In many cases, we are somewhat at the mercy of what we are told. Under those circumstances, it is a good idea to consider reasonable doubt. It is also a good idea to go to a great variety of sources. If something is reported as absolute fact from only one source, I would doubt it unless and until there were further support. Otherwise, I would have to fear abduction by UFOs. I believe Fox used to carry reports of such abductions.
In the meantime, no matter the origin of the arms used to kill people, can anybody imagine a strategy that any agency could use toward ending the violence in Juarez?
And now it turns out that the kidnappers who kidnapped the El Paso drug lord in El Paso to take over to Juarez to kill and mutilate his corpse were also Mexican Americans from El Paso.
It seems that El Paso likes to advertise itself as a safe city but many of it's residents are using Juarez to commit their crimes and then hightail it back to the comfort and safety of El Paso. For years Juarez has been nothing but their favorite cantina - a place for drunken El Paso teens but that was all they cared about from it. Not that there weren't bar owners thrilled with the big money from the drunken El Paso teens but the relationship between the two cities is unhealthy.
The people of Juarez long ago claimed that at least many of the murderers of the girls and women were being done by people from El Paso and more and more it looks like that was very likely the case.
Unable to go out to the streets and grab the guns from the armed and dangerous, I guess I'll hang around these forums and hope for the best. From Calderon's first visit, I learned that it has come to the attention of Mexico's president and the attention of our missing mayor that there are social problems in Juarez. I - and any other kid - could have given them that information many decades ago, and the social situation has certainly not improved under political guidance.
A few decades ago, when I lived in El Paso I was mildly troubled by its municipal self-righteousness. It wasn't such a big deal, but it didn't escape my attention that many of the most saintly El Pasoans didn't appear to have been in the US over six months. But, to keep the peace, I found Juarez attitudes equally provincial, equally narrow. So let's not get into a debate about which city breeds the most angels. But how much political game-playing goes into declaring El Paso one of the nation's safest cities?
I ask this for practical reasons, with some thought of moving to El Paso. I get mixed messages from the news that reports daily shootings in El Paso while stressing that it's the safest city in the US. It really makes one wonder what's going on in Detroit if El Paso shootouts are considered "safe."
Am I faced with the option of staying in Juarez where I may be shot dangerously, or moving to El Paso where I'll be shot safely? Such options make it kinda hard for me to make up my mind.
Going back to the observations that some violence in Juarez is perpetrated by citizens or residents of El Paso, I wouldn't want to make too much of such things. The proximity of the cities makes such bridge-crossing criminality inevitable. Those observing that some perpetrators of violent or criminal acts in Juarez are quick to identify the guilty as Mexican Americans. This paves the way for further nonsense about "racial" or genetic criminality. Sorry, folks, but it's hardly surprising that many citizens of El Paso are Mexican American. Do I have to keep reminding people that Juarez and El Paso are separated only by bridges and a river, that as rivers go, is nearly negligible? Mexicans and Mexican-Americans in El Paso are as common as snow in Alaska.
It is undoubtedly true that El Pasoans and visitors to the border have used Juarez as the place to get by with things they couldn't do at home. That has been the case since so far back that nobody can remember when it began. Usually, this rowdy activity amounted to nothing more than drinking too young or drinking too much, or was motivated by the youthful quest for paid sex. ....As though people in El Paso were incapable of having sex in their own city. I can remember groups of youngsters from Fort Bliss running past all the potential partners in El Paso to satisfy lust and passion in Mexico. I have no idea where they found so much attractive passion, and I have lived here for quite some time. A lot of the local charm has a peculiar way of remaining hidden from me. You can get paid sex in Skowhegan, Maine or Edmonton, Alberta. Apparently it must be more fun to pay for it in the desert. I'm not sure.
Not surprisingly, where people can make no money in the orthodox ways of the United Sates, people will turn to unorthodox ways of making money. This has something to do with needs for food and shelter that can't be met by exercising Puritan virtues. Of course, as fewer people can make a living in the traditional and accepted ways of the US, we may see a decline in the virtuous behavior of US citizens. We'll see. But, back in the day, many US citizens found that they only way they could cast aside their virtue and have a good time was to come here to Juarez and act like jerks. But, we can tolerate a jerk who is paying adequately for his right to be a jerk. We can't eat grass. Anyway, very little grass grows in this climate.
But back to one of the issues at hand.. The question that nobody is asking is: Why does a drug trade necessitate gunfire? Everybody seems content to believe that the buying and selling of marijuana or other unapproved recreational drugs somehow makes homicide a natural and predictable part of the transaction. That is simply not true. People have bought and sold recreational drugs throughout history without ever firing a shot.
I'm glad that the mayor, Jose Reyes Ferriz, is at least getting a glimpse of the absurdity of this situation. There are far greater problems than drugs in Ciudad Juarez. What we have are the combined forces of youthful ignorance and brutality being fired up by the bogus "war on drugs." Combine this with the need to make a living in a place where there are no paying jobs, and, there you have it: Mobs of uneducated young people with nothing to lose.
This is not a series of problems that will respond to any quick solutions. But I think we have to start with ending the war on drugs. Then place these youngsters in jobs that pay enough for them to have adequate food and shelter - and replace the totally inadequate Mexican educational system with real schools and teachers who know something to teach. The violence in Mexico is not drug induced. It is the result of having a generation of people who have nothing to gain and nothing to lose in Mexico. Their lives are pointless. So they see all lives as pointless. This is not a condition created by the inhalation of marijana fumes. As most people know, those who smoke dope do very little but look goofy while listening to music. They are not inclined to play with guns.
But give a bunch of energetic but hopeless youngsters a "war on drugs" to spice up their lives, and you see the bloody results in Juarez.
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