Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Where was your concern about generalizations when JuanPabloMagno was ranting A-Z on the vices of Americans.
Thanks for the cut-and-paste of JuanPabloMagno's interesting and well-written read. I'll look for it, or would appreciate if you have a link to it. I always enjoy questioning my own culture before questioning those of others. Gotta clean our own house first, right?
There might be a growing middle class, but Mexico has never really had a large middle class to begin with, so in that aspect, any rise in the number of people in the middle class is considered growth. On that same note, there is still deep poverty for many. I am not saying that one cannot rise out of that poverty. I am saying it would be harder to do so in Mexico.
There might be a growing middle class, but Mexico has never really had a large middle class to begin with, so in that aspect, any rise in the number of people in the middle class is considered growth. On that same note, there is still deep poverty for many. I am not saying that one cannot rise out of that poverty. I am saying it would be harder to do so in Mexico.
I'm not sure it's harder to do so in Mexico because it takes the same ambitions and personal responsibility as it does in the USA.
In the USA in order to be middle class where you work for what you have, you must delay the start of your family until you can provide for a family and that means stay in school, get some job skills and a job. Don't have more children than you can afford.
I think the difference is that in Mexico, people have to work for anything they expect to have but in the USA, all the trappings of the middle class can be had even if you live off food stamps, Head Start programs, WIC, Medicaid and HUD housing.
If all the government handout programs of the USA were to end immediately what then would happen to the lifestyles of people living here -- both our citizens and non-citizens? Would the women having 3-4 children before age 21 be as comfortable - or would they be more like their equivalents in Mexico?
Some people do make more money if they work here in the USA but they give up seeing their children grow up and having the daily contact with them. I'm not sure the big easy money is really worth it in that case. One of my neighbors for example, he gets no food stamps, no free housing -- he works illegally so isn't paid a very high salary - and he sends most his income back to kids he hasn't seen now in over 5 years. To me that's pretty sad.
Really you think that way? Majority of illegals has not a comfortable easy life, they work hard even in slavery conditions, with constant fear of being deported, and the pay is very low for the work, some stay because there's any other options for them.
I think the illegals you know has lucky.
Yes -- if you've seen the illegals out protesting here, they often can protest on work days during the week while the rest of us must go to work. Many don't work at all -- that's a generalization that should not be made -- all illegals aren't here working.
The ones who do work might work as slaves, even worse than slaves. The ones living off welfare programs don't have to work at all.
They have zero fear of deportation. They almost have to commit an atrocious crime before there's any need of that - maybe their 4th DWI accident but they are pretty much given a pass on most laws that most break all the time. They are allowed to commit felony document fraud, they are allowed to work for cash under the table illegally, or use stolen social security numbers.
The only time there's any real worry is when they're actually crossing over the border and a border agent sees them. Once they get one foot over the border however, they cannot be questioned - except now in Arizona. Most of course cross over the legal ports of entry with border crossing cards such as a shopping pass, or laser visa they purchased somewhere in a border down. They aren't very likely to be caught doing that and once in - they know they can skate.
with constant fear of being deported, and the pay is very low for the work, some stay because there's any other options for them.
And that would better describe how it is for illegals living in Mexico, including American citizens living and working there illegally.
I'm pretty sure I've seen them, they hang around tourist areas, actually do live in the shadows. You would never see them marching out in Mexican streets waving American flags and demanding they be given Mexican citizenship. They'd be rounded up in a heartbeat and either sent back over the border or sent to jail.
And Americans working illegally in Mexico often have few other options because they left the USA for a reason -- likely the law is after them. The illegals here may be in the same spot but others aren't wanted by any law and they certainly have the option of returning home. They could even do that and then start over and do things the right way.
I believe that the citizens of each country should respect the laws of the other. When I go to Mexico, I should abide by it's laws as a visitor. Or if I wanted to move there, I should follow the laws of that country in doing so.
I would even go further - if I were to move to Mexico, I believe I should learn it's language and adapt to it's culture and traditions, learn it's history and form of government, especially if I was seeking citizenship.
I'm not sure it's harder to do so in Mexico because it takes the same ambitions and personal responsibility as it does in the USA.
You would be correct, except for the most important detail of all:
Our culture in the United States conditions us from an early age to perceive and reach for opportunities. We can see the possibility of possibilities. We have been infused with the notion that we are the "land of opportunity." And that is one of the cornerstones that defines our culture.
On the other hand, the culture... the very fabric... of Latin America is one of inescapable barriers, limitations, and strife. From an early age, one sees injustice, oppression, and stark insurmountable contrasts between socioeconomic classes.
While, to an outsider such as yourself, one can "know" that ambition could bring a whole new world of possibilities... such knowledge is useless unless one has the ability to see beyond his/her own culture and the hidden filters through which he/she views life. Therein lies the problem.
There is an adage which says: "A bird cannot see the air it flies in. A fish cannot see the water it swims in. And a human being cannot see his own footprints." This adage is a reference to our perception of our reality... our culture. No human can perceive himself, his own culture, or his filters of how life occurs (seems to be) to him without first stepping outside of himself or his culture. That is a little tricky.
Therefore, you as an outsider can see for another what he/she cannot see for himself/herself. Culture is inherited, and self-perpetuating. So, while it may be true that taking "personal responsibility" for advancement might be a no-brainer and thus simple, really it cannot happen until and unless one first discovers a different paradigm for his/her own reality or existence.
That is why we must be compassionate with those who cannot find how to help themselves. It is not for lack of trying or wanting. Our "land of opportunity" campaign has been heard around the world, and that is what has drawn foreigners to our land. We cannot have opportunity in the United States without causing attraction to our promise of opportunity from elsewhere within cultures of oppression, domination, and conflict where mere survival is the fabric of existence and the only way of life that seems apparent or possible to the average citizen.
In being the land of opportunity, rather than condemn others who don't "get it" or "see how to achieve it," we must be patient, understanding, and helpful so that other cultures can learn. We must continue to be teachers rather than tyrants. China has learned from us. India has learned. Russia has learned. Cuba is slowly learning. Arabic countries are quietly learning. But those changes were introduced from the elite down to the masses. We cannot be self-righteous or arrogant with what we have already learned for ourselves, or condemn the destitute, desperate, or desirous for their failure to understand what is now second-nature to us. Fortunately for all, the world has become tiny, thanks to the internet, excellent communications, and travel. This is why cultures are changing at such a fast pace today. No longer can oppression and divisive tactics separate a country's people and keep them ignorant. As the world become at "equilibrium," immigration will take care of itself. We are already starting to see that happen in subtle ways.
However, as the world embraces our cultural model of opportunity, we will lose our long-held economic advantage. Our country had become complacent during this most-recent 50-year period, and we became a lazy society of "rights" rather than "responsibilities." We let other countries gain ground on our ability to innovate. We must now become newly and rigorously competitive, and that is the irony of having stood, as a nation, for opportunity. It is all good, however, because we must learn to stay hungry in our quest for excellence. We are a land of equality and are witnessing the seeds of equality spread by example worldwide. Don't be surprised when Latin American emigrants start favoring Asia and elsewhere as their new neighborhoods of choice to live, work, and contribute. It will be our loss, because those who have left their countries to look for opportunity are EXACTLY the types who made our country the great place that it is.
If we condemn those who left where they were to make a better life, we are condemning our own roots. Our country's forefathers broke laws right and left, abandoned their countries, and took over land that didn't belong to them. How dare we now call such action immoral and bad?!? That would be about as duplicitous as we could be. A convenient morality when it suits us. It was not long ago that we enslaved Africans and Asians for our benefit. We have used Latin Americans to our benefit. How insane that we now have become hyper-moralistic about their being here illegally! I'll bet that a far greater portion of our 350,000 people – in comparison to our 12,000,000 estimated illegals – is here because we brought them here in unscrupulous and inhumane ways to use them.
And now we use our illegal population to get cheap labor rather than giving them amnesty. Our politicians preach that illegal immigration is bad, but they know that there are good motives for not fixing the system. We could never deport 12,000,000 illegal immigrants... what a joke! Why not give them permanent residency in order to reduce the immense size and cost of the USCIS to better focus its efforts on truly high-level hostile and criminal border issues? Our citizens are truly pawns to local politicians who want to color immigration issues to their benefit. Have we all lost the ability to think???
... if you've seen the illegals out protesting here, they often can protest on work days during the week while the rest of us must go to work... Many don't work at all...
... The ones living off welfare programs don't have to work at all.
... They have zero fear of deportation.
... The only time there's any real worry is when they're actually crossing over the border... and once in - they know they can skate.
I am speechless after reading those remarks. Truly speechless.
I'll bet that a far greater portion of our 350,000 people – in comparison to our 12,000,000 estimated illegals – is here because we brought them here in unscrupulous and inhumane ways to use them.
Should have been 350,000,000 – sorry for the typo.
I am speechless after reading those remarks. Truly speechless.
Why? Because I don't actually generalize about how they're all just hard working, only here to pick lettuce and feed their 12 kids?
Some illegals do work for a living - but the cost of living in the USA is extremely high. Far too many end up on the social handout programs.
Now one of my neighbors does work - and he sends his money home to children who never see him. He can only afford his children without resorting to food stamps and government handouts if they stay in Mexico.
But - look at the girls and women having babies shortly after arriving. With day care costing $3 an hour and they have job skills that might pay them $5 an hour -- how can they possibly plan to to work to support their children?
Cut off all welfare handouts to non-citizens and see how many can afford "their better life" and larger than average families.
And actually I have traveled in Mexico and it's not the hell-hole you seem to believe it is. Do you believe the middle class - the educated -- are living in terrible conditions? Do you really believe that with self-reliance, personal responsibility, hard work - including staying in school, that no one can make it in Mexico?
Mexico's middle class is growing so that would contradict that belief.
Did you know Mexico will not let you in as an alien, unless you have a job!!!!!!! Mexico is rich in oil and tourism dollars. When is this country going to straighten out? when they get morals?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
