[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

I've spent several hours over the course of the past two days reading with great alacrity the racial and sociocultural overtones prevalent in many of the threads on the Michigan and Detroit forums, and I'm just sitting here scratching my head to ponder why these issues must permeate everything you people discuss?

That brou-ha-ha of a thread regarding the pack of savage ghetto kids who brutally beat that mentally-ill man on a bicycle was the last straw for me. Sweeping and broad generalizations benefit nobody. I don't particularly think my home state of Pennsylvania and Michigan are very far removed at all in terms of demographics, economic struggles, political stances, etc., and yet we're a much more successfully integrated state in terms of racial and class differences. Why?

Here are some questions I have for you all:

1. What is up with people who can't afford to have children having them anyways as a means to burden we tax payers? Is it a "status symbol" to show off the fact that your private parts get plenty of recreational usage? Are people just ignorant of contraceptives measures? This doesn't only apply exclusively to minorities, either, before someone mentions that, as we also have the highly-publicized case of that unemployed leech from California who now has 14 children that she can't afford. As a student working full-time to put myself through college, I'm OUTRAGED that a portion of my income goes to support families like that.
2. Why do so few people in Michigan have college educations? I believe that only 10% of adults in Detroit have a college degree. Whether you people like it or not the days of graduating from high school and landing in a long-term blue-collar job at the town factory with generous compensation and benefits to support all of the townspeople are over. In order to be viable in today's marketplace you need not only a degree in most cases, but also an advanced degree. I am about to graduate with my Bachelor's Degree, and even I'm having difficulty obtaining a commensurate position with my upbeat persona and strong work ethic, hence why I'm considering going all the way for my Ph.D. to make myself more marketable to prospective skilled employers. Instead of whining "I can't find a job," as I see many on this state forum doing, why don't you research what opportunities ARE available and market yourselves appropriately? You may not have many opportunities working on an assembly line, but there ARE programs available to help you go back to school to learn how to be an LPN, earn your CDL, become an apprentice tradesman, etc. In my area the medical, transportation/warehousing, and skilled trades are HOT right now so you have only yourselves to blame for wallowing around in unemployed bliss for years on end when you can reinvent yourself to find a new avenue to support your family. Complaining feels so much better than actually showing initiative though, doesn't it?
3. Why is slavery still being referenced on this forum? The last time I checked your distant ancestry had VERY LITTLE impact upon the decisions you make TODAY to influence your OWN lives! How do I know this? I know of some affluent coal baron families in my own area who, after just a few generations, have tumbled far down the socioeconomic ladder. Similarly you should NOT be saying "I'm struggling today because my great-great-great grandfather was a slave." That's not an acceptable excuse. Slavery was abolished WAY over 100 years ago. Stop using it as a "crutch," educate yourself, and do something productive.
   
   Everyone is so worried about being "politically correct." If we continue to tap-dance all around our societal ills, then how can we ever address them and hope to RECTIFY them?

I think you could make your point better if you DEMONSTRATE or backup your Major and Minor premises. Demonstrate that Philadelphia or the state of Pennsylvania is more integrated than Michigan in a significant way. Also demonstrate or give examples of this in regards to class, assuming that both premises are not simply sweeping generalizations.

Obviously no one in Pennsylvania have children that they cannot take care of and hence the only place you can find case studies of why people do this is Michigan via the Michigan forum. Okey Dokey…..Gotcha…..sounds like a legitimate search for knowledge and understanding to me.

You talk about the state of Michigan educational attainment, and then you use statistics from the City of Detroit. The last time I checked the City of Detroit and the State of Michigan are not synonymous. Furthermore, the City of Detroit is hardly a Microcosm of the state of Michigan demographically and no intelligent well meaning and educated person would attempt to use Detroit proper to make a point about the state as a whole, for what is true of the part is not necessarily true for the whole. Such assumptions are called “the fallacy of composition”.

Why is history a subject in schools? What does the American Revolution, freedom from Britain, the founding fathers or even WWI and WWII have to do with the decisions we make today? Did it not set the structural foundations of democracy that our decisions of today are framed and manifest? Slavery is as influential in to the present state of American Americans as the revolution, the founding fathers, and the shaping of America is influential on white Americans lives today. The only way to understand and explain the present is via use of events in the past.

That having been said, life is a competition. It’s a relay race with each generation representing a leg of the race. Each generation is passed the baton from the previous generation. Hence, the new generation always starts off from the position they inherited from the previous generation. Therefore, if the previous generation was stunted in their progress, due to race, they pass on that socioeconomic disadvantaged starting point to the next generation, who has to be SUPERIOR in effort to make up the inherited difference. The ONLY way that the disadvantage can be made up is through SUPERIORITY. Hence, the failure to be SUPERIOR means that the disadvantage will always be preserved. Working just as hard will not do it because the gap cannot be lessened by being the same, but only by being SUPERIOR to whites. That assumes that whites have been running as hard in life as they claim. If they have been slackers...then yes....blacks can theoretically reached parity from white laziness, assuming that blacks are running as fast as they can. Blacks struggle to first break from from the environment that they inherited.....which uses up and traps a large percentage. Those who break free then can compete in the "white world".....by that time...they have used up a lot of energy...that many whites never have to expend.

[michmoldman]

You are right, there are jobs. I went to a very large local place that sells cement statues yesterday, just because I like to look for ideas, and maybe pick up a few things to mold. just for fun i asked if they were hiring. The guy told me yes, just min. wage and about 30 hrs. a week. lol! to say I was not tempted would be a lie, because it would be like heaven to work there, but it just was strange to hear everyone say there are no jobs, and I could have had one yesterday! I know it would not pay most bills, but it was still a job.

[magellan]

Originally Posted by ScranBarre

There are always exceptions to every rule, and I was just basing my observations off of my local area, where most who have been unemployed long-term don't have any sort of formal education or vocational training. It's amazing the number of Americans who feel "entitled" to having a good-paying job just fall into their laps. We're in a different economy nowadays, and it's "survival of the fittest."

Many Michigan high-school grads go on to college and get degrees. The problem is is that many of them don't hang around because there aren't enough jobs due to the mass exodus of American's manufacturing base (and the tech jobs that support these industries). That's why the percentage of Michigan residents without college degrees is lower than the national average. It's not because Michigan high schoolers don't value a college degree any less than other state's HS grads. Actually, Michigan's education system is leaps and bounds above much of the South.

But I don't really get how that pertains to your contention that the Michigan section members are more racist than other people.

[Driller1]

I do not see what is wrong with wanting to be with your own race.

[WheredoIlive?]

I am scared to death of the ghetto, saying so is enough to get you labeled racist, {I am white}but I have been almost raped, saw an armed robbery with sawed off shot gun at a busstop, got jumped, followed and robbed when I was living in Rogers Park in Chicago. Living in ST. Joe, next to the most hellish ghetto in the state of Michigan, sucks. Especially when ST. JOE offers NO SOCIAL SERVICES and forces everyone to go to the MOST BURNED OUT PART OF THE BENTON HARBOR GHETTO who needs help. To be poor in St. Joe is to be in HELL. I know I have GOT TO GET OUT OF HERE else I end up having a life like I did in Chicago.

I get sick of the political correct BS, when people get mad and say hey you racist, I dont care what color anyone is. The race card baiters will claim you are racist, just because you dont want to get your head shot off, or get robbed or raped or live next to a bunch of drug dealers. I am sure decent folks of a certain persuasion, think the ghetto sucks too.

[daddythreepointoh]

Well I'm from California and I have to say that Michigan, especially metro Detroit, has race and class issues. It was pretty shocking to us when we first moved here. But like some other posters have said, you tend to get the worst of the worst on these message boards, from what I've seen. There are plenty of normal, nice middle class people of all races that live here and work together and pretty much get along. And then there are those who live with a chip on their shoulder and go through life blaming everyone else for them sitting on their butt in the ghetto.

Right now I live in a nice suburb just outside of Detroit, and due to getting laid off last week, am moving up just north of the metro area in the country. I can't lie and say I'm a little...relieved?...that my kids are going to be up there instead of down here...who knows how bad it's going to get.

[Peter B]

Originally Posted by michmoldman

You are right, there are jobs. I went to a very large local place that sells cement statues yesterday, just because I like to look for ideas, and maybe pick up a few things to mold. just for fun i asked if they were hiring. The guy told me yes, just min. wage and about 30 hrs. a week. lol! to say I was not tempted would be a lie, because it would be like heaven to work there, but it just was strange to hear everyone say there are no jobs, and I could have had one yesterday! I know it would not pay most bills, but it was still a job.

30 hrs a week at minimum wage is poverty level. There is no shortage of minimum wage jobs in Michigan, especially in the North. That is part of the problem. I know a single mom I used to work with who had 3 part time jobs and still couldn't keep her head above water.

[michmoldman]

Originally Posted by Peter B

30 hrs a week at minimum wage is poverty level. There is no shortage of minimum wage jobs in Michigan, especially in the North. That is part of the problem. I know a single mom I used to work with who had 3 part time jobs and still couldn't keep her head above water.

I wasnt saying it was much, but sometimes you have to start somewhere. Every job I have had, I have had a chance to become management. A few I did, a few I turned down. I went in to any job I've ever had with the attitude to be the best worker, and work my way up quick! If I did not see the opportunity, I quit. Most people who get a job just complain it sucks, or doesnt pay enough. If I had a job where I seen I could move up, I worked my butt off. Now it has paid off because I work my butt off for ME. I know everyone cannot have that attitude, but also...where does it get anyone to complain? It may help to blow off steam, but it gets nowhere. If my business went down, I would do whatever it took to get back to where I wanted to be. If I had to go work at meijers starting at minimum wage, I would say, ok this sucks...but in a year I will be making much more because I will be the best they have. If I seen there was no way to move up I would quit and move to the next. Its all about how bad you want to make it happen.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

I think you could make your point better if you DEMONSTRATE or backup your Major and Minor premises. Demonstrate that Philadelphia or the state of Pennsylvania is more integrated than Michigan in a significant way. Also demonstrate or give examples of this in regards to class, assuming that both premises are not simply sweeping generalizations.

Obviously no one in Pennsylvania have children that they cannot take care of and hence the only place you can find case studies of why people do this is Michigan via the Michigan forum. Okey Dokey…..Gotcha…..sounds like a legitimate search for knowledge and understanding to me.

You talk about the state of Michigan educational attainment, and then you use statistics from the City of Detroit. The last time I checked the City of Detroit and the State of Michigan are not synonymous. Furthermore, the City of Detroit is hardly a Microcosm of the state of Michigan demographically and no intelligent well meaning and educated person would attempt to use Detroit proper to make a point about the state as a whole, for what is true of the part is not necessarily true for the whole. Such assumptions are called “the fallacy of composition”.

Why is history a subject in schools? What does the American Revolution, freedom from Britain, the founding fathers or even WWI and WWII have to do with the decisions we make today? Did it not set the structural foundations of democracy that our decisions of today are framed and manifest? Slavery is as influential in to the present state of American Americans as the revolution, the founding fathers, and the shaping of America is influential on white Americans lives today. The only way to understand and explain the present is via use of events in the past.

That having been said, life is a competition. It’s a relay race with each generation representing a leg of the race. Each generation is passed the baton from the previous generation. Hence, the new generation always starts off from the position they inherited from the previous generation. Therefore, if the previous generation was stunted in their progress, due to race, they pass on that socioeconomic disadvantaged starting point to the next generation, who has to be SUPERIOR in effort to make up the inherited difference. The ONLY way that the disadvantage can be made up is through SUPERIORITY. Hence, the failure to be SUPERIOR means that the disadvantage will always be preserved. Working just as hard will not do it because the gap cannot be lessened by being the same, but only by being SUPERIOR to whites. That assumes that whites have been running as hard in life as they claim. If they have been slackers...then yes....blacks can theoretically reached parity from white laziness, assuming that blacks are running as fast as they can. Blacks struggle to first break from from the environment that they inherited.....which uses up and traps a large percentage. Those who break free then can compete in the "white world".....by that time...they have used up a lot of energy...that many whites never have to expend.

I think this post is insightful. One thing I have noticed is that poverty can be a generational curse.

[wanderer74]

It is true that MI has more class and race issues than a lot of other places, and statistically the state also has a lower than average educational attainment (even outside of metro Detroit). I believe those are very related issues. Many of the cities, particularly in the eastern side of the state, are also among the most segregated cities in the nation, according to a U of M study I saw a couple years ago. This includes most of the cities with the highest unemployment rates: Detroit, Flint and Saginaw, where I'm from. One of the previous posters said that there have been many generations that have relied on the expectation of high-paying factory jobs right out of high school. My own family is not an exception: I'm in the first generation to go to college, and it was never pushed on me as something I needed to do. I am now pursuing a master's degree and have had family members call me a "glutton for punishment" rather than supporting my efforts. Welfare similarly is ingrained in many people passed down through generations, so they've never had an example of how to do anything else. The racism and classism comes in when the factory worker types blame someone other than themselves for their lack of opportunities.

At the same time, though, the solution isn't always simple. Despite graduating near the top of my class, I spent 7 months unemployed after graduation and even then only found part-time work. My sister has a degree in accounting (supposedly one of the most in-demand fields) and was still earning far less than $30K a year with no benefits. I know people who want to go into the medical field, where the jobs actually exist, but there's a 2-year backlog at the local college for beginning clinicals. Even those who are willing to move away may not have the money to do so, considering that they may be working in jobs far beneath their educational/skill levels with earnings barely enough to support themselves, let alone save for a move. And even if the jobs may exist elsewhere and someone has a moving fund, I know from experience that it's very difficult to get out-of-state employers to even offer to interview an entry level candidate from another state. During one of my husband's long periods of unemployment, he sent out 20+ resumes a week to out-of-state employers for 6 months and never got a single interview. That leaves you waiting until you can actually get an offer or having to take the risk of moving without jobs lined up.

Long story short, even though some type of education beyond high school - whether it's college per se or vocational training - may be necessary, it doesn't mean the jobs are there when you graduate. Even if you're trying to escape the "typical MI" trap of less education/factory jobs/racism/classism, often the better opportunities still aren't there even for the people trying to pursue them...especially in this current economy.