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What I would have loved was some easy way to get from Pilot Knob Road along 494 to the Mall of America -> Southtown -> France Ave -> Radisson South (or whatever it is now) -> Eden Prairie Center -> Downtown Hopkins -> Knollwood -> Ridgedale, and so on.
That arc covers a fair percentage of the places I would visit for shopping, entertainment, etc.
American Blvd gets to most of those now avoiding 494 but you are right, that traffic is NOT fun.
Well, since I first posted this thread in early 2009 they have nearly completed the Green line light rail to St. Paul, the Green Line extension to Eden Prairie has been approved and is currently embroiled in environmental report issues, and the Bottineau line is just now being discussed to Maple Grove. It is correct that these project have turned out to be long and tedious, however future ones may follow rail lines, cutting down construction by many factors, and they are revitalizing stagnant neighborhoods.
One area is the neighborhoods west of the U of M down the central corridor.
Businesses are suffering in the mean time due to the inconvenience from construction activity. Green line extension and Bottineau would both tie up rail traffic,
I'd never use Public Transportation. It's a complete joke to me. I like to have the freedom of my own vehicle. I don't want to be restricted to schedule, packed in with strangers.
I do know that the Twin Cities have fallen behind when it comes to Public Transportation. I personally am not a fan. Public Transportation does little to nothing to ease congestion, and I believe more cost effective programs like Shuttle Busses (Maple Grove) are more effective, and are well received.
The NorthStar commuter rail is a failure so far, but the Central Cooridor should be a great addition as well as the Green Line out to the West Burbs.
I do think that MnDot needs to increase the amount of Freeway lanes, however they have said that that is something they will not do, not for at least the forseable future.
I cannot fathom how 494 South from the Maple Grove Split, down to Eden Prairie 212 is only 2 LANES?! Are you kidding me? How can a beltway cooridor in the USA's 15th largest metro, in the most populated PART of the metro, have only 2 LANES? That should be at least 4 lanes, both directions. Same can be said for 394 Eastbound from 494. Bottleneck and moronic planning is the reason for congestion.
I majored in Urban Planning and in every single Liberal transportation planning class they lived by the idea of "Adding more freeway lanes encourages vehicle use, thus causing more traffic"... I think that is a complete and utter dispicable statement to say. What a joke.
MnDot - Make our freeways real. This isn't ho-hum Protestand, hot-dish and sweater Ye old Twin Cities anymore. If you want to move into the future and have your freeway system be a representation of where you stand, start increasing freeway lanes. It reminds me of my old JR High before we got a new one. It would like 5 minutes to get across the school because it was in a school built in the 1930s and the hallways were 6 feet wide. They build a new school, 4X the size and you could get to classes much much quicker because hallways were HUGE.
Pretty basic stuff right? It didnt encourage "More students to travel from class to class"
I'd never use Public Transportation. It's a complete joke to me. I like to have the freedom of my own vehicle. I don't want to be restricted to schedule, packed in with strangers.
I do know that the Twin Cities have fallen behind when it comes to Public Transportation. I personally am not a fan. Public Transportation does little to nothing to ease congestion, and I believe more cost effective programs like Shuttle Busses (Maple Grove) are more effective, and are well received.
The NorthStar commuter rail is a failure so far, but the Central Cooridor should be a great addition as well as the Green Line out to the West Burbs.
I do think that MnDot needs to increase the amount of Freeway lanes, however they have said that that is something they will not do, not for at least the forseable future.
I cannot fathom how 494 South from the Maple Grove Split, down to Eden Prairie 212 is only 2 LANES?! Are you kidding me? How can a beltway cooridor in the USA's 15th largest metro, in the most populated PART of the metro, have only 2 LANES? That should be at least 4 lanes, both directions. Same can be said for 394 Eastbound from 494. Bottleneck and moronic planning is the reason for congestion.
I majored in Urban Planning and in every single Liberal transportation planning class they lived by the idea of "Adding more freeway lanes encourages vehicle use, thus causing more traffic"... I think that is a complete and utter dispicable statement to say. What a joke.
MnDot - Make our freeways real. This isn't ho-hum Protestand, hot-dish and sweater Ye old Twin Cities anymore. If you want to move into the future and have your freeway system be a representation of where you stand, start increasing freeway lanes. It reminds me of my old JR High before we got a new one. It would like 5 minutes to get across the school because it was in a school built in the 1930s and the hallways were 6 feet wide. They build a new school, 4X the size and you could get to classes much much quicker because hallways were HUGE.
Pretty basic stuff right? It didnt encourage "More students to travel from class to class"
Actually, 494 in Eden Prairie at Highway 212 is three lanes, and the freeway has been widened to at least 3 lanes from its eastern junction at Interstate 94 in Woodbury through Highway 55 in Plymouth. It only drops to two for the final stretch through Plymouth and Maple Grove, so some progress has been made, right?
All kidding aside, I somewhat agree with your post. Although I don't personally use public transportation, I recognize how important it is for others and definitely see a need to keep improving options for light and commuter rail, buses, etc. Accordingly, I think the current and planned light rail corridors for the metro area are great and will fulfill a real need.
That said, however, I don't think public transportation funding should come at the expense of expanding our roads and highways, especially in the Twin Cities where the car was and will always be the primary mode of transit. Unfortunately, it seems like lately there has been a real "anti-car or road expansion" propaganda promoted by some public transit enthusiasts who feel that everyone should just use light rail, bus, or walk or bike to work, and if people aren't in a city or other (urban) location or otherwise have easy access to their job or such methods of transit, they should move to be in closer proximity. The reality for a lot of people who rely on their cars is that this idea, while sounding great in theory, is not so easy or practical to implement for numerous reasons.
I fully understand that we can't build our way of congestion and realize places like Atlanta and Los Angeles have failed when they've tried to do so, but that doesn't mean we should just abandon the idea of fixing current traffic bottlenecks. When I say we need additional highway lanes, I'm talking 3-4 (maximum, not 10-12 monsters) in each direction versus the primarily 2 we have now in so many areas. Especially in locations where lane drops occur such as the aforementioned 494 in Plymouth, at the very least an additional lane should be completed to rid the system of a choke point. This would go a long way to alleviate a solid chunk of the congestion we see on a daily basis.
The reality is to produce a truly successful transportation system we need BOTH public transportation and expanded highway/freeway lanes.
I majored in Urban Planning and in every single Liberal transportation planning class they lived by the idea of "Adding more freeway lanes encourages vehicle use, thus causing more traffic"... I think that is a complete and utter dispicable statement to say. What a joke.
MnDot - Make our freeways real. This isn't ho-hum Protestand, hot-dish and sweater Ye old Twin Cities anymore. If you want to move into the future and have your freeway system be a representation of where you stand, start increasing freeway lanes. It reminds me of my old JR High before we got a new one. It would like 5 minutes to get across the school because it was in a school built in the 1930s and the hallways were 6 feet wide. They build a new school, 4X the size and you could get to classes much much quicker because hallways were HUGE.
You think it's "despicable" and "a joke." But the concept wasn't invented by some "liberal planning class" just to plss you off. It's rooted in actual research. Imagine that! It's called induced demand, and it's been recognized as a problem with road planning since at least the 1960s.
Now, that's not to say that our freeway system doesn't need work, because it absolutely does; it's been neglected for over 30 years. Part of the problem is that we have had a state government that's been hostile to any kind of infrastructure improvement. Just look at the long-term response to the 35W bridge disaster -- it's like it never even happened.
The reality is that we need comprehensive transportation funding and planning. We need expanded and improved freeways, but we also need transit.
Your example of school hallways is...umm...not remotely relevant.
On 494 and highway 55 I can literally throw the car in park, run up to the buffalo wild wings on vicksburg, place an order with a compatriot of mine, receive the order, and get back to my car in time to move 10 feet.
But ya i believe Rhody said it best that Public transit needs to be suited to compliment and alleviate private transport burdens, thus trimming commute times across the board.
I'd never use Public Transportation. It's a complete joke to me. I like to have the freedom of my own vehicle. I don't want to be restricted to schedule, packed in with strangers.
Having a personal vehicle is great (I have one and currently use it to drive to work...love the freedom, though I'm actually quite excited to get a job in location like downtown in the near future where I can take the bus), but not everyone can afford one and we certainly don't need every single person to driving everywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knke0204
I do know that the Twin Cities have fallen behind when it comes to Public Transportation. I personally am not a fan. Public Transportation does little to nothing to ease congestion, and I believe more cost effective programs like Shuttle Busses (Maple Grove) are more effective, and are well received.
The NorthStar commuter rail is a failure so far, but the Central Cooridor should be a great addition as well as the Green Line out to the West Burbs.
How are shuttle buses not...um...public transportation? Unless these are private shuttle buses? I really don't see how Maple Grove is a shining example. People don't move out there for public transportation access. The number of people served (in a relatively wealthy suburb) is low where a shuttle bus with curb-to-curb just might work. But how would that work in Minneapolis?
And can we really argue that congestion isn't eased by the 40 percent of downtown workers who travel by methods other than a single-occupied vehicle? That would add tens of thousands of cars to the road on downtown streets, Minneapolis local streets, interstates and highways like 94/35/55/etc, and even out to the suburbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knke0204
I do think that MnDot needs to increase the amount of Freeway lanes, however they have said that that is something they will not do, not for at least the forseable future.
I cannot fathom how 494 South from the Maple Grove Split, down to Eden Prairie 212 is only 2 LANES?! Are you kidding me? How can a beltway cooridor in the USA's 15th largest metro, in the most populated PART of the metro, have only 2 LANES? That should be at least 4 lanes, both directions. Same can be said for 394 Eastbound from 494. Bottleneck and moronic planning is the reason for congestion.
They don't plan on freeway expansion because infrastructure liabilities at this point are huge. We have built and built and built roadways in the metro and failed to do upkeep. At this point we're going to face a shortfall just in the upkeep alone. Why would we add even more liabilities? That's just silly.
On the other hand, something should be done about 494. And if I recall correctly, they are planning on striping a new lane on the two-lane stretches. 494 should probably be about 4 lanes in each direction, but I'd like to see that be incremental. While it's the most populated part of the metro, it isn't exactly short on highways. 494, 100, 169, 212, 55, and 394 (not to mention 94 for certain areas) all are in the area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knke0204
I majored in Urban Planning and in every single Liberal transportation planning class they lived by the idea of "Adding more freeway lanes encourages vehicle use, thus causing more traffic"... I think that is a complete and utter dispicable statement to say. What a joke.
MnDot - Make our freeways real. This isn't ho-hum Protestand, hot-dish and sweater Ye old Twin Cities anymore. If you want to move into the future and have your freeway system be a representation of where you stand, start increasing freeway lanes. It reminds me of my old JR High before we got a new one. It would like 5 minutes to get across the school because it was in a school built in the 1930s and the hallways were 6 feet wide. They build a new school, 4X the size and you could get to classes much much quicker because hallways were HUGE.
Pretty basic stuff right? It didnt encourage "More students to travel from class to class"
We know induced demand exists. That isn't to say expansion isn't sometimes necessary. But we've pretty much proven in this nation that we can't build our way out of congestion.
Your school example doesn't make sense. A school has a fixed number of students. So widening the hallways (strange that a newer upgrade has wider hallways...the widest ones I've seen were in much older buildings) will indeed create more space. A student at a nearby school can't decide they want to walk through the new hallways one day on the way to their class because they're in a different building! But if we add another lane on a highway, there will be people who adjust their routes or move to the area or stop taking public transportation because "there's more space on the highway now!" Suddenly the highway is back to the same old congestion. Induced demand is real.
Pretty basic stuff right? It didnt encourage "More students to travel from class to class"
Bad analogy. The point is not that more or less people will travel, it is about the way that they travel.
Students do not have a choice in method of travel, but if they did (such as going out a back door and walking on the outside of the school) wider hallways would indeed cause them to do that less.
Too bad you did not study economics: supply and demand.
If there is less supply of car lanes, the price of using a car goes up (time is money), encouraging more people to use ... ta da ... public transportation, which becomes relatively cheaper the less lanes there are.
This is the same effect that higher gas prices have, which is why it is SMART planning to move away from cars (and exurbs) now, because that is only going to get more expensive in the future.
I appreciate that you enjoy the freedom and independence of having a car, so do I sometimes, but the reality is that it will get more expensive in the future and people will be less willing to pay for that freedom, and the cities that are well-prepared with public transportation will gain from this. I also the appreciate the many benefits of public transportation: ability to read, work or relax while traveling, great people-watching, low cost, environmentally friendly. And the better the system gets, the more independence it offers.
If you want public transportation to a suburb, move downtown, or somewhere along the route that goes to that suburb, it's really not that hard. What the Twin Cities needs is more public transport within the dense urban areas, those are the people that get good use out of it. Nicollet streetcar please!
Suburbanites gotta blame themselves for electing people like Tim Pawlenty who hate anything public. Minneapolis and St Paul have battled with suburban legislators for decades over budget issues.
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