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Actually, I have walked those 6 blocks in several places. For someone that supposedly walks so much, you sure have a difficult time walking on sidewalks where you have to cross with a stop light. I just don't get it. Of course, it's back to your argument that Minneapolis is the ONLY place anyone could possibly walk
You're right. Lots of suburbs have sidewalks. Can't paint them all with the same brush. Downtown Hopkins is an example of a nice downtown in the surburbs. I think if there's a problem, it is just that it is unpredictable. If you set out for a suburban location, will you find yourself walking in the road or on a sidewalk. If you start OUT on a sidewalk, will it just terminate somewhere along the way. Central cities pretty much guarantee sidewalk as far as you want to go. Suburbs were mostly built for people who drive everywhere, so sidewalks are an extra expense that the taxpayers don't support. Here in the central cities, if winter wrecks a sidewalk, you have an extra assessment on your property tax. I think car-centric suburban home owners don't want the sidewalk enough for that. If they have a short walk, they'll just hoof it down the road. And probably there isn't anything but other houses in reasonable walking distances. So out comes the car.
I'm also wondering: Do people who live out there ever get chummy enough with anyone near them to share car rides anywhere? We had this good deal in Stillwater way back where you could call the one cab company, and it would go to the farthest call and then pick up riders as it headed for downtown. Of course, the city had no kind of bus at all. But at least several people shared the cab. Fact is that any kind of shared car ride in the further reaches would be guaranteed to be more efficient than transit. Good reason to invite the neighbors over for a cookout or something. Get things going with the people who live on your block. Might find another Twins, Vikings, or Wolves fan which would allow splitting parking downtown.
I have NEVER suggested that all suburbs are the same, or that Minneapolis is the only place where one can walk. I have, however, walked around in some of these areas right off of 494, and while Golfgal may not be bothered by the walking conditions, I think most people would probably not find them all that comfortable. And given that the streets are not exactly thronged with fellow pedestrians, I guess I'm not the only one. Take walking around Southtown (which I have done frequently over the years). Yes, there are sidewalks in many places. There are stoplights. There are also VERY busy streets, and the sidewalks often don't have any buffer. And many of the stoplights have those push buttons that you have to push to get a walk signal; on more than one occasion there have been snow piles so deep in front of them that it was nearly impossible to clamber over to reach them. There's the Bloomington Transit station tucked back in there, and there AREN'T sidewalks for some of the streets around there! Granted, those are the back streets and there isn't much traffic, but still!
Or take much of Edina out by Centennial Lakes or Southdale. Tons of jobs around there, but the sidewalks are spotty at best. They sometimes randomly stop, while other times the sidewalk is literally directly adjacent to a driving lane, no parking lane or buffer or anything to separate the person from cars speeding by. Not fun in sloppy weather, and even if it's not dangerous (although it is, or at least is not optimal conditions for pedestrian safety) is certainly not something that most people find enjoyable.
In many of these areas there also are very few trees, which makes for a hot, unpleasant walk during the summer months. Lots of surface parking lots and concrete and not much vegetation. (that is true in the area around the MOA, too -- lots of surface parking lots, lots of huge streets to cross, hardly any trees and a desolate, car-oriented landscape doesn't make for optimal walking conditions). Sure, you CAN walk, but it's not set up for it. And most of us aren't as up for long walks along major thoroughfares in poor walking conditions as is Golfgal. I think she's the exception, not the rule, especially among those who have cars and could probably just drive that same distance and not have to worry about whether or not the sidewalk would end or be blocked by snow or just be dirty and unpleasant and hot and potentially dangerous. The areas right off the 494 are not, in my experience, all that friendly to pedestrians. Some of the back streets might be okay, and not all streets are as bad as Penn, but if talking about getting people to/from workplaces we're inevitably going to be talking about walking on major streets that currently put the needs of pedestrians pretty low on the totem pole. And walking six blocks in a landscape of parking lots, gas stations, and drive-through fast food places (which seem to dominate the blocks close the freeway by exits) probably isn't going to convince most people to leave the car at home.
I'm wondering about a route that did something like this:
1) Start at Rosedale
2) north on 35W, west on 694 to Arbor Lakes in Maple Grove. Maybe pull off and back on at a couple of ramps on the way (Silver Lake Rd?, Central?, University?, something in Brooklyn Center/Brooklyn Park?), maybe use Snelling instead of 35W and pickup Bethel and Northwestern. Or maybe head by whatever the old Apache Plaza is called now and up Central to 694?
3) To North Hennepin Community College via Hennepin Tech
4) To downtown Anoka via the Target campus and a stop along 169 in Champlin
5) Anoka Tech
6) Riverdale
7) Anoka-Ramsey Community College
8) Northtown
9) Take County 10 to 35W with a stop or 2 along the way (Silver Lake?)
10) Take 96 east to downtown White Bear Lake making stops along the way (Lexington?, Hodgson?, 35E?)
11) Century College via 61 and County E
12) Maplewood Mall
13) back to Rosedale
Total distance is 76 miles which google thinks would take 140 minutes. If you run circulators in both directions you'd be within about an hour of anything on the route.
You'd hit 4 major shopping areas, 2 downtowns, 5 community colleges/tech schools, major employment areas (Target, Medtronic, the cluster in Arden Hills), hospitals (St. John's, Mercy, is there one in Maple Grove near Arbor Lakes?), transit centers (Northtown, Maplewood, Rosedale, Maple Grove, Starlite, maybe Columbia Heights), community centers (whatever is being planned/built in Coon Rapids, Mounds View, Shoreview)
You also would fill in gaps in the system along major travel routes: 694, 169, 96, County 10
I could see this being fairly competitive with driving unless you end up making a lot of stops where people get on/off. Of course if lots of people get on/off that would mean the thing is a success.
I also think such a route would be better split into a number of segments. And you could use exisiting routes to shortcut the loop on Central, University, and Silver Lake. Maybe run something new along 610 to connect Target/North Hennepin with Northtown?
I'd guess you could do something similar in other parts of the metro.
Back to the original question.... MATH. It's really pretty simple if you look at actual numbers.
From MetCouncil data:
Downtown Mpls employment is about 160K. Add the hotel rooms, the convention visitors, the events at Target Field, Target Center, Orchestra Hall, the multiple theatres, schools such as St. Thomas/ DeLaSalle, etc. and there are a whole lotta potential mass transit riders. Employment number for all of Mpls is 281K (back in 2011). Employment number for St. Paul is 176K. Employment is still a bit down from the recession- whereas before combined core city numbers were 500K.
Where else is there this concentration of workers? Bloomington is the closest- but they only have 86K works total in ALL of Bloomington. After that, the density of workers really goes down.
Yes, there are plenty of jobs in the suburbs and no one would dispute that. BUT they just aren't centralized to create enough the density required to support a substantial transit system. It will be interesting to see if the SW light rail line will spur that kind of density and development. The density has to be encouraged or even required by the cities and not just driven by developers- otherwise it's not going to happen.
Roseville has its circulator. Maybe adjacent suburbs should have them and have them meet at boundaries. The real question comes down to level of subsidy. If Metro Transit does it, it will be subsidized. If it is subsidized, passenger loads have to reach a certain minimum. I think they probably have planners who try to guess how many drivers would desert their cars for each potential route. I suppose they could try pilots to provide some real world evidence of actual switchovers. But it could easily be that people who want service out there are just too unusual. It is really responsible to want to travel on transit, but the whole area you live in has to experience that change of heart. If not, then you will have to move to a place where there are more people like you. You don't necessarily get to choose both, the perfect neighborhood and the best transit service. Life is routinely full of compromises.
Back to the original question.... MATH. It's really pretty simple if you look at actual numbers.
From MetCouncil data:
Downtown Mpls employment is about 160K. Add the hotel rooms, the convention visitors, the events at Target Field, Target Center, Orchestra Hall, the multiple theatres, schools such as St. Thomas/ DeLaSalle, etc. and there are a whole lotta potential mass transit riders. Employment number for all of Mpls is 281K (back in 2011). Employment number for St. Paul is 176K. Employment is still a bit down from the recession- whereas before combined core city numbers were 500K.
Where else is there this concentration of workers? Bloomington is the closest- but they only have 86K works total in ALL of Bloomington. After that, the density of workers really goes down.
Yes, there are plenty of jobs in the suburbs and no one would dispute that. BUT they just aren't centralized to create enough the density required to support a substantial transit system. It will be interesting to see if the SW light rail line will spur that kind of density and development. The density has to be encouraged or even required by the cities and not just driven by developers- otherwise it's not going to happen.
I'm still holding out for basically a transit system at all. Downtown White Bear Lake is essentially inaccessible by bus. Highway 65/Central in Blaine including the National Sports Center has no bus service. County 10 from Northtown to 35W has essentially no bus service. The shopping center in Vadnais Heights at County E and 35E has no bus service. Highway 96 through Arden Hills, Shoreview, Vadnais Heights, White Bear Township has essentially no bus service. The new Medtronic buildings and Rice Creek business park along County J are only accessible from downtown Minneapolis(?!?). These are areas with lots of jobs and multiple pay levels. I don't think it makes sense to run a bus every 10 minutes on these routes, but woudln't it make sense to run a bus every hour or two? Or at least once or twice a day?
Back to the original question.... MATH. It's really pretty simple if you look at actual numbers.
From MetCouncil data:
Downtown Mpls employment is about 160K. Add the hotel rooms, the convention visitors, the events at Target Field, Target Center, Orchestra Hall, the multiple theatres, schools such as St. Thomas/ DeLaSalle, etc. and there are a whole lotta potential mass transit riders. Employment number for all of Mpls is 281K (back in 2011). Employment number for St. Paul is 176K. Employment is still a bit down from the recession- whereas before combined core city numbers were 500K.
Where else is there this concentration of workers? Bloomington is the closest- but they only have 86K works total in ALL of Bloomington. After that, the density of workers really goes down.
Yes, there are plenty of jobs in the suburbs and no one would dispute that. BUT they just aren't centralized to create enough the density required to support a substantial transit system. It will be interesting to see if the SW light rail line will spur that kind of density and development. The density has to be encouraged or even required by the cities and not just driven by developers- otherwise it's not going to happen.
Potential doesn't equal use--only about 267,000 people use the bus system, including those coming in from the suburbs....even in Minneapolis and St. Paul the usage is low--why have it at all then--for the rest of us to subsidize and not be able to use....
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