why dont they build more public transportation to more suburbs (Minneapolis: income, living in)

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by Glenfield

All of the transit systems receive their funding from the State Motor Vehicle Excise Tax, the sales tax paid on vehicle sales. At least one-third of their revenues must come from fares.

I suppose that you could complain that a portion of your tax dollars go to Metro Transit, but then I could complain that a portion of my taxes go to SW Transit, and an Eden Prairie resident could complain that their taxes are going to MVTA, etc. I'm not sure I see the point in that.

Some suburbs opted out of the Metro Transit system in order to receive their tax support directly and make their own decisions about transit within their communities.



I would like to see some research to support this statement before I accept it. My own observation is that driving is everyone's first choice, and people only take mass transit when some cost of driving--either in time or money-- exceeds the inconvenience of mass transit. The failure of the North Star Line would seem to demonstrate that people will not ride a train that is built where people drive.

Except that the Northstar line was NOT built where people drive. It was built along a low density route and was not extended to St. Cloud. Build the line along 94 and you have a different story. Mass transit would be more efficient along 696/494 for most people, supporting your convenience factor (with express lanes). They are studying suburb to suburb transit. We took part in a study last year. They haven't released the results yet though.

[golfgal]

Eagan bus garage to be expanded for bus rapid transit | StarTribune.com

but no one uses mass transit in the suburbs

[Glenfield]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Except that the Northstar line was NOT built where people drive. It was built along a low density route and was not extended to St. Cloud. Build the line along 94 and you have a different story. Mass transit would be more efficient along 696/494 for most people, supporting your convenience factor (with express lanes). They are studying suburb to suburb transit. We took part in a study last year. They haven't released the results yet though.

I'm not convinced that building it along 94 would have made much difference. They built is along Hwy 10 which, according to MnDOT, has about 80% of the traffic volume of 94 in that area.

TFA Data Products - TDA, MnDOT

[xandrex]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Well, my commute is from my bedroom to my home office so whatever. Again, for me to take the light rail into Minneapolis it adds an hour on to the trip and doesn't even go where I need it to go so if I took it to my dr's office, which is my most common Minneapolis trip, it would add 2 hours each way with bus transfers. Would you take the bus or rail if it added 4 hours to your day? Doubt it. If I could take the light rail and have it come close to the same as driving, I would in a heartbeat but people like you just don't get it. You whine about the traffic and cars but you certainly aren't supportive of any alternatives now are you?? Why do you even care?? You don't go to the suburbs, we have scary intersections here you know. You can stay in your cocoon and to heck with everyone else

You complain that nobody would take public transportation because it takes longer (in a previous post), but you still want a light rail that will take you into Minneapolis for your doctor appointment that will somehow magically take less time than driving. That's just not going to happen during non-rush-hour times. You want to have your cake and eat it too.

Originally Posted by golfgal

So, once again, build the transit system where people drive--the 494/694 loop and stop building useless lines. I've said many times, the rail system should loop around 494/694 with spokes off on the 35's, Cedar and 94. That would alleviate at least half, if not more, of the congestion in the metro since 90+% of people living in the metro work on the 494/694 loop....people can't use it if it does't exist....

To use 494 and 694 as singular unit locations in the same way that DT Minneapolis is used is disingenuous at best. It would be like saying that Bloomington and Eden Prairie should be lumped together because they're both on 494! There very well might be a lot of people in the 5 miles from Normandale to MOA you mentioned in a previous post, but that's incredibly spread out. Assuming you had a station at all of the roads that cross 494, you'd be in a sticky situation. Here's 494 and Xerxes: I-494 E to I-494 E - Google Maps . Where are people supposed to walk? There's one sidewalk on one side of the street with no way to safely cross in many areas and then it's a long walk through a large parking lot to the building. If running shuttles is the solution, then who pays for that? On top of a billion dollar line and all of its upkeep you either have to have the public fork over money for poorly-placed businesses to get their employees to work or charge businesses for this new expense. Seems like a waste of money.

But let's play out your fantasy for a moment. Let's say a light rail gets built from Normandale to Mall of America. Or even start out to Eden Prairie where it might meet up with the SW line and go to MOA to make a triangle with the Hiawatha line. Who in their right mind would drive to the station (I suppose we'll have to have a giant park-and-ride ramp at each of these places), wait for a train, ride the train, and then either walk to their location or wait for a shuttle bus to carry them to work.

At this point, a trip from Rosemount High School (I picked this location as it seemed like a fairly central location in the city) to 494 at the end of this Suburban Loop line is 13 miles away with a current time of 19 minutes. But let's add a bit of time since it's not rush hour. Are you really saying your son or husband would take the light rail with the above-described steps rather than driving the extra few miles on a route parallel to 494? They'd easily shave off time staying in the car, they'd have free parking, and they wouldn't have to worry about bus fare (they're already commuting in the car so what's a few extra miles?).

Looking around, I can only assuming the busiest station would be Penn Avenue or France Avenue. I couldn't find numbers, but I assume a location like 50th Street/Minnehaha Park Station is probably the quietest of the Minneapolis light rail stops (not sure how places like American Boulevard or Bloomington Central fair). It is much more walkable to a few businesses and lots of residential. And we can't even compare any suburban line to probably the busiest stop on the entire line: Nicollet Mall. So which line seems like a better investment? I think the answer is pretty obvious.

[Beenhere4ever]

I took the 84 line to Rosedale today. At Rosedale, I took a look at the map by the bus stop. There is a LOT of service branching off from that Transit Center to suburban destinations north of Highway 36. The time of day service tends to be l limited simply because the planners think suburbanites are getting in their cars to go shopping for groceries or at Target in Shoreview. Are they wrong? That's another thing I was thinking on my ride. How do they go about getting input? Do they run a citizen advisory board? And what do transit fans do to organize. I was wondering if there were any special interest groups similar to the PC interest group I joined in the 80's. For all its age, I think transit is in an infancy of sorts. From here I see only growth. But what will control that? Questions on this board? Or citizen groups that meet, formulate longterm needs, and communicate with officialdom. So that's a new research project for me. Find out the names of already-existing groups, where they meet, what they do, how they communicate with the Metropolitan Council, the body that bears the responsibility for the future shape of public transit in the 7 counties. I might finally find one group that spends its time acting and talking about a subject I've cared about since at least the late 1960's.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by golfgal

So, once again, build the transit system where people drive--the 494/694 loop and stop building useless lines. I've said many times, the rail system should loop around 494/694 with spokes off on the 35's, Cedar and 94. That would alleviate at least half, if not more, of the congestion in the metro since 90+% of people living in the metro work on the 494/694 loop....people can't use it if it does't exist....

I agree with this. Our rail map should be roughly the same as our freeway map (at least at the beginning). Presumably this would be the best practical way to do it, since the right-of-way already exists. Unfortunately, our transit planners (and funders) don't think ahead like this. They currently do not build roadways and interchanges that could accommodate rail, and I doubt they ever will.

[Beenhere4ever]

OK, here's one I knew about already. I have to learn more, participate more.
Transit for Livable Communities

TLC Members & Allies Gear Up for a Busy Legislative Session

01/08/2013
By Whitney Lawrence, Member Engagement/Senior Organizer
On December 13th, TLC members and allies gathered at our office in Saint Paul to catch up over dinner, take action by writing letters to Governor Dayton, and get a sneak peek at our legislative agenda for 2013. There were many familiar faces at the year-end event. We were especially excited to see Senator Jim Carlson from District 38 and Representative Ron Erhardt from District 49A at the meeting. There were also new faces, including Wynfred Russell, the executive director of African Career Education Resources (ACER). Wynfred is a leader in his community of Brooklyn Park and TLC is very lucky to have him and his organization on board this year. In total, there were about 40 TLC members in attendance. Thanks for all your valuable input and thoughtful questions, and thank you to everyone who was able to make it on a snowy evening! It was nice to finally meet many of you!

[1stpontiac]

FWIW, the NS runs along Highway 10 because there is a train track there already. The closest equivalent out along 94 diverges out from the interstate at Rogers, routes around Maple Grove, and then wanders down through New Hope and Robbinsdale.

[knke0204]

Originally Posted by golfgal

Of course there is increased demand but it's not just because people move to the suburbs. The TC Metro has added over a million people since the 494/694 ring was build--with 2 lanes. That is a LOT of new people. Future growth predictions are for another million in the next 20 years. That is a lot of people. The current system can't handle that many people, period.

NAIL ON HEAD.

I was never denying their "Traffic Studies" legitmacy. They are just very tilted and don't tell the story. Minneapolis-St. Paul has added a million people in the past 20 years. To deny that adding additional freeway lanes would in part help ease congestion is just ludacris.

Growth of exurbs has added to congestion. More people and cars, same amount of lanes. Communities like Albertville, St. Michael, Big Lake, Becker, Monticello, Rogers, Otsego, Elk River, Hanover, Buffalo were all non-exsistant in the 1990s. That entire I94 corridor has seen remarkable growth, with little to-no additional lanes added.

To be so obtuse to just sit there and deny the fact that adding a few additional would help ease congestion is just ignorance.

[northsub]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I know Northstar has been a bit of a bust, but do you think that the stations have any potential to be transit hubs for more local routes? I know there are still all sorts of redevelopment plans in place around many of the stations.

Unless you can run more than a few trips a day I don't think there's much potential at all. The number of trips are limited by BNSF, so even having a large passenger demand won't matter.

Even if you somehow got BNSF to agree to a bunch more trips, Northstar would connect what? Riverdale and downtown Anoka? Those 2 are 1.4 miles apart, and the connection via Northstar involves about a 0.7 mile walk to downtown Anoka. The Riverdale stop is about 0.4 miles from the closest store at Riverdale. So, to get between downtown Anoka and the best-case store at Riverdale you saved someone about a quarter mile of walking if they take Northstar instead of just walking.

The Fridley station is not really next to much. I guess it's within 0.7 miles of a Cub and Home Depot.

There already exist places that could work as transit hubs. Why not use those?