Can someone tell me where american staffordshire terriors are welcomed in Montana? (Billings: crime rate, how much)

[truckingbronco]

I don't like spiders either

[AQHA]

Originally Posted by jimj

...had to shoot 2 dobermans.

There was a time in the 70's and 80's that dobermans were very popular, now days this is not a breed I see much of. I grew up with dobies, they are another dog that takes a skilled owner but they are wonderful dogs.

I understand the folks who show dogs have breed this dog down to a dog that is different than the dobies of old, they have turned it into more of couch potato. I've not met any modern dobies so I dont know if this is true or not-- I hope not.

[Reziac]

Dobes haven't changed much that I've seen. There have always been some that are fairly laid back, some that are nervous idiots, and some that are high-drive working-type dogs. The main thing with dobes is that as a breed, they are very trainable to *patterns*, but lack real intelligence. But they are VERY observant, so will learn patterns you didn't realise were there, and you can inadvertently give the dog a command you hadn't know you did (like "attack me"!) But they can't think beyond the pattern (they make good "robots") -- so if something changes, they're lost, and will react accordingly -- a high-drive dog may become aggressive, and a nervous dog may run in circles (perimeter "patrolling" is really just nervous pattern-behaviour), while a laid-back dog will just "turn off" and stand there like a lump til you tell it what to do. Only the laid-back type is safe as a pet for the average person.

Personally I can't stand that pattern-oriented personality, which is why I have old-style working-line Labradors, not Dobes -- I want a thinking dog, not a robot. As I always say about field work, it ain't MY job to find the duck.

[AQHA]

For a while there in the late 60's and early 70's the doberman had a similar reputation as the pitbull has today. I think a big difference in the two breeds is that pitbulls are truly a fearless dog, whereas the doberman is more of a bluffer. Dont get me wrong, a doberman will engage, but he would rather not.
Do you agree with this Reziac?

[Mattie Jo]

I love Montana law. It was that way in Creston, CA where if your dog went after cattle or other animals to kill it would be shot, as it should be.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by AQHA

For a while there in the late 60's and early 70's the doberman had a similar reputation as the pitbull has today. I think a big difference in the two breeds is that pitbulls are truly a fearless dog, whereas the doberman is more of a bluffer. Dont get me wrong, a doberman will engage, but he would rather not.
Do you agree with this Reziac?

An unstable Dobe is more dangerous than an unstable Pit, because you don't KNOW what the Dobe will do literally from one second to the next, whereas the Pit will usually give you fair warning. And yes, there are far more fearful Dobes than there are fearful Pits, and fear-driven aggression in ANY dog is far more dangerous than mere "beat you up because I *can*". But the root difference is that Dobes are pattern-driven, and the slightest break in its expected pattern for how the world works (including holes in its own behaviour, such as odd fears**) means the dog does not know what to do, so might do ANYTHING. Pits are much more adaptable, thus less likely to trigger on the unexpected. -- One reason you see so few "bad" Labradors is because they are perhaps THE most adaptable of all breeds.

**Side note: there is juvenile-onset psychosis in dogs (it is inherited, but the inheritance is not simple; in a mutt, it can be due to MISSING genes of what should have been a "matched set"). The principle symptom is a sudden and drastic phobia for absolutely no reason (usually at puberty ie. circa 9 months of age), such as of umbrellas, or of thunder, or of men wearing hats. These dogs become difficult for average people to live with and often wind up voluntarily surrendered to "rescues". Hence it is commonly mistaken for "the dog was abused" when no such thing happened; in fact the dog's brain took a sharp left turn and ran off the road. Some can be retrained to a livable behaviour, but they will never be truly normal, and are always risks for fear-aggression. It is probably the equivalent of human schizoid disorder. It is more common in females than in males, and more common in neutered dogs (especially if done quite young) than in intact dogs.

Conversely, a genuinely abused dog, given as little as 30 days in a normal evironment, will invariably revert to whatever was its inherited temperament -- be that good or bad.

Canine temperament is almost entirely inherited, not made; that is why breeding for good stable temperaments is so important, in ANY breed. It's even more important with the current spate of feelgood cookie-training that encourages the DOG to be the BOSS in the relationship.

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[AQHA]

Deputy shoots pit bull to make arrest
MISSOULA, Mont. - A Missoula County sheriff's deputy responding to a report of a man hitting a car with a bat ended up shooting at a pit bull after the man apparently ordered the dog to attack.

Around 8 p.m. Saturday, a pizza delivery man was looking for a residence when Lance Hartley came out of his house shouting about how he'd been robbed in the past and that he didn't like the sound of the vehicle's muffler, the police report said.

Court record said Hartley, 61, went back inside his house, grabbed a bat or a metal pipe and began pounding on the roof of the delivery car. As Hartley walked around the front of the car toward the driver's side door, the driver sped away. He delivered the pizza and called 911.

Missoula County Deputy Bill Burt knocked on Hartley's door and returned to the other side of a fence in the front yard. Hartley came out of the house with a dog at his side. Burt identified himself as a law enforcement officer.

"Lance leaned down toward the dog and said 'get 'em' or 'get it,' according to Burt's report.

"Immediately upon that command, the dog became ferocious and started running directly toward the open gate and near where I was standing," Burt wrote. "The dog was making a growling sound as it approached. At a distance of 3 to 5 feet, I fired one shot at the head of the dog."

*
The bullet struck the dog in the back of the neck, but the shot was not immediately fatal.

Hartley asked the officer to put the dog "out of his misery," and grabbed an ax to do it himself, but Burt drove to dog to a veterinary clinic where it was euthanized.

The dog did not belong to Hartley, who was caring for the animal because its owner couldn't keep the dog at his rental home.

Hartley was charged with assault with a weapon and assault on a police officer. His bail was set at $50,000.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by AQHA

Deputy shoots pit bull to make arrest
MISSOULA, Mont. - A Missoula County sheriff's deputy responding to a report of a man hitting a car with a bat ended up shooting at a pit bull after the man apparently ordered the dog to attack.

Don't blame the dog or the breed (tho it may or may not have been a pit bull -- there are a lot of similar-looking breeds AND similar-looking mutts) -- blame the owner here, for being an aggressive moron who is willing to use any potential weapon (and most dogs can be taught to "sic"). He used a dog instead of a gun, tho clearly had no compunctions about using a baseball bat either. "Whatever's handy" seems to be the guy's motto.

But I guess we'd better ban little league too, because after all the kids might learn how to swing a bat there and then they'd be out beating up everyone with their trusty bats.

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[montanahogrider]

The problem being that pitbulls are the dogs that deserve the bad rep they get. And yes the problem belongs with the owner but the aggressive behaviour has been bred into the pitbull. I have a Jack Russell which is the most aggressive dog you have ever seen but he's not big enough to do anything damage. Besides he is keep indoors and is walked only on a leash. With a pit bull, he is large enough to do considerable damage to other dogs and people and does. Most pit bull owners keep there dogs in a fenced yard never realising that they can and do climb. I know you love your dogs but the breed cannot and should not ever be trusted. They are great to YOUR family, not to other familys.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by montanahogrider

The problem being that pitbulls are the dogs that deserve the bad rep they get. And yes the problem belongs with the owner but the aggressive behaviour has been bred into the pitbull.

Pits were bred to be aggressive to other DOGS. Not to humans. In fact a fighting dog that bit a human was killed on the spot.

You really need to go to a UKC show and take a look at the average Pit Bull. Your principle danger from them is that you might be licked to death. And Pit puppies are if anything sweeter than average for ANY breed -- they love everyone they come in contact with. At last weekend's show I was teaching a bunch of green handlers with inexperienced *adult* Pits how to display the dog's teeth for the judge's inspection, and I cranked and pulled on these dogs' lips and noses any way I wished and none of the dogs offered me so much as a curled lip. I did get pretty seriously slimed, tho

There are some bad Pits. But there are some bad dogs in every breed, and a great many more bad dogs among mutts (where there is no selection at all for good temperament). But don't take as typical the sensationalism from the news, nor the occasional moron who encourages aggression in his dogs because it makes him feel like a Big Man.

There is a natural but unfortunate tendency for people to be far more fearful about RARE attacks (dogs, snakes, terrorism, kids going postal, etc.) than about relatively common disasters (car crashes, accidents in the home, etc), because emotionally, we *feel* like we have more control over the "familiar" disasters. You can read more about it in Bruce Schneier's articles about "security theatre" at Schneier.com

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