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Is it just that you don't like the Stones? There's quite a few others mentioned above that you could have declared as false. Why these guys? And those weren't opinions that I listed.
Mind you I wasn't talking about the Stones...I didn't even quote you!
OK. But now I'm confused a bit by your post. Do you mean to say that claiming one songwriting team or individual as the champ is a false assumption? If so, I couldn't agree more. Anyway, there's been a ton of good music produced by those artists listed above and variety being the spice of life, it's comforting to know that we have so much to choose from. And no offense taken
The title of Greatest Songwriter(s) ever is of course impossible bestow as it's purely subjective and based on opinion but sure is fun to talk about and argue about!
BTW a few glaring omissions IMO:
Page/Plant/Jones? No one mentions Led Zeppelin?
Jimi Hendrix? Again, NO ONE?!?!?!
Randy Rhoads/Bob Daisley (wrote the first two solo Ozzy records. The Ozzman was just a passenger) Throw Geezer Butler and Tony Iommi in there too for all the good (and bad) Sabbath stuff
Steve Harris (Iron Maiden)
Bob Marley
Otis Redding
Robert Smith (Cure)
Morresey
Van Halen
Jon Bon Jovi (not a big fan but the guy writes a good pop song)
Steely Dan (another one I don't personally care for but can't deny their talent)
Bob Dylan
Jim Croce
Willie Nelson
Otis Redding
Bruce Springsteen
Irving Berlin
Cole Porter
Sting
Curtis Mayfield
Stevie Wonder
Kris Kristofferson
Lennon/McCartney
Carol King
Jim Morrison
Though Lennon and McCartney wrote some good stuff, as far as being the "greatest" songwriters, they aren't even close, even if one confines oneself to popular music. They are far outshadowed by the likes of Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Johnny Mercer, and--maybe the best and most prolific of all--Duke Ellington and his frequent alter-ego, Billy Strayhorn. All of them were prolific writers, but--beyond that--they had what Linda Ronstadt called true "craftsmanship" in what they wrote for the Great American Songbook--quality that Lennon/McCartney's stuff, as good as some of it might be, never rose to that level.
No they are not overshadowed by any of these people. They wrote "In My Life", "Hey Jude", "Eleanor Rigby" and even classical music critics were raving about "Not A Second Time". "Yesterday" alone has over 3,000 cover versions. I dare to say the Beatles songs have been the most covered by musicians in all the genres the last 50 years. Leonard Bernstein even went to say they were the greatest song-writers of last part of the 20th Century. Frank Sinatra called "Something" the greatest love song he ever heard. There have been plenty of jazz musicians cover Beatles songs. I think their gift of melody, chord progressions actually they went away from the usual 1-4-5 chord progression of rock music were a huge influence on rock music.
I highly doubt Cole Porter or Duke Ellington was doing something like George Harrison was doing in pop music like “Blue Jay Way” a pop tune with a verse that's ... (half step/whole step) scale and a chorus based on theLydian mode. or something as bizarre as "Love You To". The Beatles basically broke all the rules on "I'm The Walrus" or "A Day in the Life". The Beatles would do all sorts of crazy things with time signatures like the change of time signatures on the bridge of "We Can Work It Out" or the completely progressive one on the bridge on 11/8 + 4/4 + 7/8 on "Here Comes the Sun". Or take "Norwegian Wood" George Harrison becomes the first rock guitarist to play the sitar in a pop recording. The Beatles use non-blues modality ‘; in this song the verse is written in E Mixolydian while the bridge is written in E Dorian. They experimented with non-blues modality even further on Revolver. Whatever you think the Beatles went outside the established populuar music genres in their songwriting.
As much as I like Dylan he was only known for his lyrics and there is more to songwriting than lyrics. I think some of you are diminishing how innovative the Beatles were as songwriters especially in the rock/pop realm.
Though Lennon and McCartney wrote some good stuff, as far as being the "greatest" songwriters, they aren't even close, even if one confines oneself to popular music.
You are so wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover
They are far outshadowed by the likes of Gershwin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Rodgers and Hart, Cole Porter, Johnny Mercer, and--maybe the best and most prolific of all--Duke Ellington and his frequent alter-ego, Billy Strayhorn. All of them were prolific writers, but--beyond that--they had what Linda Ronstadt called true "craftsmanship" in what they wrote for the Great American Songbook--quality that Lennon/McCartney's stuff, as good as some of it might be, never rose to that level.
First off, it's not correct to compare two different genres. Why did you mention Gershwin and didn't mention writers like Beethoven and Mozart who are for sure head and shoulders above guys like Gershwin? (Anyway, it was a kind of rhetorical question I don't need the answer at because I assume you're just a jazz lover so you're opinion is biased.)
I do believe that the greatest songwriters of rock and pop music field are Lennon and McCartney (whether you like them or not) who have composed so many great tunes that boggles the mind. However, if you wish to compare the writers of two genres I'm going to tell you the only true criterion I know of to figure who is the best out is the amount of people who love the songs composed by the writer. Thus, we can easily see The Beatles beat all your fave jazz composers. And please don't find the comfort in the hope that the rock and pop musicians are allegedly overshadowed by the latter ones because some of them compose songs with the intricate structure. The intricacy doesn't equals talent and greatness. Indeed, some of the Beatles tunes are pretty simple, though it requires a genius writer to compose the tune hundred millions people all over the world willl be loving for the decades.
First off, it's not correct to compare two different genres. Why did you mention Gershwin and didn't mention writers like Beethoven and Mozart who are for sure head and shoulders above guys like Gershwin? (Anyway, it was a kind of rhetorical question I don't need the answer at because I assume you're just a jazz lover so you're opinion is biased.)
I do believe that the greatest songwriters of rock and pop music field are Lennon and McCartney (whether you like them or not) who have composed so many great tunes that boggles the mind. However, if you wish to compare the writers of two genres I'm going to tell you the only true criterion I know of to figure who is the best out is the amount of people who love the songs composed by the writer. Thus, we can easily see The Beatles beat all your fave jazz composers. And please don't find the comfort in the hope that the rock and pop musicians are allegedly overshadowed by the latter ones because some of them compose songs with the intricate structure. The intricacy doesn't equals talent and greatness. Indeed, some of the Beatles tunes are pretty simple, though it requires a genius writer to compose the tune hundred millions people all over the world willl be loving for the decades.
Yes some of their songs are simple but a lot of their songs are pretty wild for it's time. Take for instance on "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "I'm Only Sleeping" they are clearly using recording technology into the compositional process. Paul McCartney creates a series of loops which then was put through a recording console to create the song actual musical backdrop. Then on "I'm Only Sleeping has a reversed guitar duet played by Harrison. Harrison in a five hour late-night recording session with producer George Martin. Harrison perfected the part with the tape running backwards so that, when reversed, it would fit the dreamlike mood.One guitar was recorded with fuzz effects, the other without.
The Beatles were using recording technology into the compositional process. I don't know how many jazz musicians were clearly doing this before the Beatles and Brian Wilson.
I have to agree with some of the other people here the Rolling Stones were on a roll in writing great songs and they were certainly not over-shadowed by jazz musicians either.
Yes some of their songs are simple but a lot of their songs are pretty wild for it's time.
Of course some of their songs are pretty sophisticated. I know that. I only said 'simple' because many people associate The Beatles with the songs like I Want To Hold Your Hand and don't even know about their other stuff.
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