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I'm glad we had this system in the 1950s when they built the interstate highway system. All of those Ovaltine proof-of-purchases paid for billions in roads. Most people don't realize that we got to the moon by donating our spare change to the Boy & Girl scouts standing outside the Grand Union too.
Your interpretations of our tax system and how it relates to the public good are some of the funniest things I've ever read on these boards. Keep up the good work!
There is no "public good". It is an anti-conceptual phrase used to justify all manner of evil socialistic power grabbing and use of political power for private economic gain - for those who are "connected". We need emphasis on the "individual good". Returning wealth to those who actually earned it in the first place will do more good for the public than you could ever imagine. But that would be a fringe benefit, not a raison d'être.
By the way, in my Internet Tax Account, I would definitely allocate significant potions of my voluntary tax for roads and bridges. So would most citizens who drive. Those that do not drive might have other priorities. So this system not only eliminates redistribution (hugely good), and eliminates deficits (hugely good), it is also inherently fair.
Dude you have some serious issues. The fact is you live in the greatest country in the world. The fact remains that you will agree with some things and disagree with others. The fact remains that as bad as some programs maybe they actually have some use for whomever they apply to. I have never ever ever in my life received welfare,unemployment,tuition aid,section 8 or anything else along those lines but I understand that as an American its my duty to help my fellow brothers.
I am not sure what why complain about soo much. You claim to be a successful real esate agent and yet all you do it complain about the system that allows you do be so scary successful. I have friends who are in exactly the same field that you are in and they make a killiing in my opinion. They are in the area of 300 to 350k a year. Guess what they pay their taxes just like you and then contribute big time to Saint Judes every single year. Best of all they dont complain. They know that are blessed to live in country where all things are possible. They are a 35 year old couple, own a Range Rover, and BMW and two homes. What exactly should they complain about?
You are just a greedy person who wants to contribute nothing to society and just use the sytem.
While I dont think Marc's extreme libertarianism is practical, I certainly agree with the libertarian morality more than the collectivist morality. While it may not be practical, it is certainly amoral to force someone to hand over their personal property under threat of imprisonment. Again, leaving practicality, and economics out of the equation, strictly from a moral standpoint, is that right and just? Because that is what forced taxation is.
It seems like most of the protections of the constitution are protections against the tyranny of the mob. If every single person in America, except bababua, thinks that bababua should not have the right to speak, should he in fact, HAVE the right to speak? Of course. Thats what the 1st amendment is all about. Like wise, if the bottom 99%, thinks the top 1% has too much money, does the mob really have the right to take their money away against their will? (Not, can they legally do it? They can.) But do they have the moral right?
Again, I do not think that this is necessarily practical in today's society, but I understand where Marc is coming from, and from a moral standpoint, I fully agree with him. The difference between many of us is, just how much liberty are we willing to give up for practicality.
(bababua - I didn't mean to single you out. It was only because I was responding to your post)
There is no "public good". It is an anti-conceptual phrase used to justify all manner of evil socialistic power grabbing and use of political power for private economic gain - for those who are "connected". We need emphasis on the "individual good". Returning wealth to those who actually earned it in the first place will do more good for the public than you could ever imagine. But that would be a fringe benefit, not a raison d'être.
By the way, in my Internet Tax Account, I would definitely allocate significant potions of my voluntary tax for roads and bridges. So would most citizens who drive. Those that do not drive might have other priorities. So this system not only eliminates redistribution (hugely good), and eliminates deficits (hugely good), it is also inherently fair.
You're right. The court system and the jails are frivolous wastes of taxpayer money and serve no public good. In the Paolella Tax System, if we allocate only 1/3 of a cent to the courts and jails, you too could have rapists and murderers on your block.
There are services & products that corporations do great. Apple, GE, Procter & Gamble, Coca Cola. I don't think privatizing prisons as they did in PA where judges got bribes from the private prisons to send lots of kids to the juvie centers who did such bad stuff asspray painting or staying out too late is a good idea. Or close to home the Parsons car inspection debacle under Christie Twit-man. The so-called cost savings are usually a mirage or the services rendered are unsatisfactory.
I would definitely allocate significant potions of my voluntary tax for roads and bridges. So would most citizens who drive. Those that do not drive might have other priorities
OR.... a TAX on motor fuels so those that use those facilities pay for the construction and upkeep. A simple theory that has as of today escaped the brains of NJ politicians. They simply want to keep telling everyone how cheap NJ gas is while the transportation infrastructure crumbles around us.
The Transportation Trust Fund is empty.Due to the thievery of the politicians over the years and the reluctance to increase the gas tax. NJ politicians have looted every fund they could think of and then pointed fingers when they get caught. Christie is no different.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella
There is no "public good". It is an anti-conceptual phrase used to justify all manner of evil socialistic power grabbing and use of political power for private economic gain - for those who are "connected". We need emphasis on the "individual good". Returning wealth to those who actually earned it in the first place will do more good for the public than you could ever imagine. But that would be a fringe benefit, not a raison d'être.
By the way, in my Internet Tax Account, I would definitely allocate significant potions of my voluntary tax for roads and bridges. So would most citizens who drive. Those that do not drive might have other priorities. So this system not only eliminates redistribution (hugely good), and eliminates deficits (hugely good), it is also inherently fair.
First off, I have to say that I am not a big fan of income taxes.
However, this has got to be one of the funniest, most ill-conceived ideas that I've heard of in years, from a non-politician.
You want to run the country like PBS!!!!!!!!!!!!
You do understand that PBS can't get by on just voluntary memberships, don't you? They are underwritten. So who is going to underwrite the federal government?
You're right. The court system and the jails are frivolous wastes of taxpayer money and serve no public good. In the Paolella Tax System, if we allocate only 1/3 of a cent to the courts and jails, you too could have rapists and murderers on your block.
There are services & products that corporations do great. Apple, GE, Procter & Gamble, Coca Cola. I don't think privatizing prisons as they did in PA where judges got bribes from the private prisons to send lots of kids to the juvie centers who did such bad stuff asspray painting or staying out too late is a good idea. Or close to home the Parsons car inspection debacle under Christie Twit-man. The so-called cost savings are usually a mirage or the services rendered are unsatisfactory.
"We" don't allocate anything. "I" allocate my voluntary taxes as I see fit. Since courts and jails are a primary function of government, they would get a big chunk of my tax dollars. And almost every thinking person would realize the value of courts and jails, AND the military, and would contribute strongly and voluntarily to military and civil defense.
Even now, many people tithe 10% or more of their income to their houses of worship to help those in temporary or permanent disarray. Voluntary taxation is a similar concept, only it is more important and would demand outstanding citizens - the kind of strong, principled citizens we need to become. It would legitimize our entire government system - since it would be based strictly and empirically on the consent of the governed. A much more precise consent than the garbage presently taught in public schools. Are we good enough to design and operate such a system? Yes, I believe so. The first step is to begin debating it and refining it. How delicious would it be to absolutely and permanently castrate the power elite that has destroyed what the Founding Fathers envisioned, and replace it with a government that is run, and funded, by the individual citizen according to his own moral and philosophical values, without force, and without compulsion, and powered by reason rather than powerlust? We must evolve and find out.
Marc- I give you props for being a consistent libertarian. The problem is in our system the vast majority of people do not support true libertarian government. Do you recall the hc debate when Tea Party members held signs saying-"Keep the government out of my Medicare"
Marc- I give you props for being a consistent libertarian. The problem is in our system the vast majority of people do not support true libertarian government. Do you recall the hc debate when Tea Party members held signs saying-"Keep the government out of my Medicare"
And that's entirely the point that makes Mark's argument moot. Old people LOVE THEIR MEDICARE!! A government program of all things. Same with Social Security. Some of these old timers are so old they remember their grandparents living in the attic without 2 pennies to scratch together. Mark would call those swell times Rugged Individualist America. For these benefits we have to raise a certain level of (God forbid) TAXES. We don't invade 3 countries in 10 years on Mark's "Tithing for the Good of America" program.
Voluntary taxation is a similar concept, only it is more important and would demand outstanding citizens - the kind of strong, principled citizens we need to become.
I can understand the principles you are proselytizing, Marc. But debate or not, I don't see how it could be possible.
Trying to change the way the country and states are governed is one thing, and a mighty achievement it would be, given the two-party system and the checks & balances that have been built in (which current politicians use to ensure NOTHING from the opposing party is easy to implement).
But now you're talking about changing everyone in society? I'm curious how that could be accomplished in your plan. For instance, how does your plan handle illegal aliens, who would get the services everyone is providing for free (yeah, I know ... like now).
Also ... wouldn't the creation of these "outstanding citizens" then require some of your personal allotments going to public education ... even if you don't have children? If only a limited number of people adopt your philosophy here, and schools are underfunded, how is this panacea going be achieved?
If nobody outside of the market for a personal home supports the ability to deduct mortgage interest and property taxes, who, except the filthy rich, will then ever be able to buy a home?
Additionally, one of your details from a previous post says that you would set these allotments over the Internet, and you would be able to change them at any time. This detail seems a bit shortsighted, as anyone who doesn't have Internet access and a computer would not be able to participate. Not everyone is "in this boat", so to speak. And changing one's selections after-the-fact sounds extremely complicated, from a funding POV. How could ANY facility/agency create an annual budget if they cannot count on the funds that were already offered?
I believe we DO need taxes ... this is not "theft". The USA's citizens and corporations are not paying enough (NONE of us). We have some of the lowest income tax revenues of ANY advanced country, and it has been this way for decades. We also need additional alternative forms of taxation. Taxes based on assets would be much more appropriate, and other tax structures must be created. Sales taxes on certain commodities would do as you suggest, having the tax paid only by those who use that particular commodity.
I also agree we also have a LOT of fat to trim. Some of the things I see in the news regarding waste just leave me shaking my head. For instance, using tax funds that were collected for a particular purpose, and then robbed by politicians for their own greedy purposes IS theft (and should be dealt with as such).
Waste is rampant in many areas. Here's an article from California (just to show NJ is not alone in this mess ), that leaves me bewildered.
Paying trillions of dollars on corporate bailouts, accepting responsibility as as the world's policeman, having 600+ school and local districts, are all further examples of the theivery going on.
But the collection of taxes to pay for the things we ALL need is a necessary evil, IMO.
Your goals sound WONDERFUL, but they are totally unreachable. Maybe this is how existence would be governed in the great hereafter, but I doubt we're going to change politics/government and the entire populace anytime in our lifetimes. I think we've got to accept some of the things that are already set up, and make adjustments for those areas that are currently not working.
We don't invade 3 countries in 10 years on Mark's "Tithing for the Good of America" program.
Hmmm, and from THAT perspective, I like Marc's plan
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), that leaves me bewildered.
