Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
still gang members tried to use SYG many times, just as police chiefs predicted
This statement needs proof. Please provide it.
Additionally, just because they "tried" to use it neither proves that the murder otherwise wouldn't have happened, nor that they used it successfully.
SYG, is less of a concern with typical "thug" like criminals but rather ordinary citizens who would otherwise let cooler heads prevail in a heightened situation.
well, id try to make sure there were witnesses around if i had to shoot him lol
it becomes complicated, but u asked me what should u do if u carried a gun
that is why i wouldnt carry it
so you are walking down the street and brock lesnar comes walking your direction and he says that he is about to beat you to death. at that moment, you wouldnt rather be armed than unarmed?
i understand that statistically you may have less overall deaths if nobody was armed. but as an individual, how comforting would that statistic be if you happen to be standing in front of someone about the beat the crap out of you and he is saying "im gonna beat you to death." you are just walking to the corner store to pick up some baby formula and condoms; and 5 guys jump out with knives, are you not thinking "i wish i had a gun on me."
i understand that, but we have to deal with the realities in the world. while you dont want any people carrying guns; it is legal in many places for people to carry guns. so we need to consider when is it ok for someone legally carrying to use his/her gun without being sent to prison.
I agree, I think a national conversation needs to take place about this. I have not seen any reason to thing SYG (such as it is in Florida) is the natural, and appropriate, extension of self-defense laws.
so you are walking down the street and brock lesnar comes walking your direction and he says that he is about to beat you to death. at that moment, you wouldnt rather be armed than unarmed?
i understand that statistically you may have less overall deaths if nobody was armed. but as an individual, how comforting would that statistic be if you happen to be standing in front of someone about the beat the crap out of you and he is saying "im gonna beat you to death." you are just walking to the corner store to pick up some baby formula and condoms; and 5 guys jump out with knives, are you not thinking "i wish i had a gun on me."
Ah, see the statement alone is not enough justification to kill someone. People say stupid things like "I am going to kill you" all the time. It has to be paired with the aggressivors refusal to retreat when confronted with someone calling the police, AND refusal to retreat when warned about the gun and your willingness to use deadly force.
See we disagree. I have no issue with concealed carry. I sort of like it because to be able to legally carry a concealed weapon, you have to have a license, which can (and often is) tied to gun safety training.
I dislike SYG, especially Florida's version, because it encouraged people to use deadly force when their emotions are heightened.
well yea, i can see how someone can disagree with me and think CC is a better option, thats fine, diff people, diff views, but SYG is just outta control
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainNJ
i understand that, but we have to deal with the realities in the world. while you dont want any people carrying guns; it is legal in many places for people to carry guns. so we need to consider when is it ok for someone legally carrying to use his/her gun without being sent to prison.
all i kno is SYG is fd up, existing self defense laws should be enough
in your example if someone attacked u for no reason and u killed him in self defense, that seems like a solid self defense case, if u exhausted all other options prior to killing him, unlike when people can start the beef and then kill if they feel like they are losing or kill for petty reasons and make up a story how they were scared for their life
Additionally, just because they "tried" to use it neither proves that the murder otherwise wouldn't have happened, nor that they used it successfully.
SYG, is less of a concern with typical "thug" like criminals but rather ordinary citizens who would otherwise let cooler heads prevail in a heightened situation.
I found three of the cases where SYG in FL was used by criminals to avoid prosecution and/or received immunity for killing someone from a judge. The cases and links were posted in post #132. Two of them involved drug rivalries that led to killings and one involved a gang gun battle that resulted in the death of a teenager. All ended up being either not prosecuted or being granted immunity under SYG.
what does that have to do with my question? just state your position. some guy randomly comes up to me on the street and punches me. i am legally carrying a gun; you think i should stand up, put up my dukes and try to out-fight him?
It's a tough question. I think the non-FL SYG laws and even those of NJ regarding self-defense follow a logical path.
I don't think you are justified in shooting someone just because they punched you once. As in guy punches you, you pull out a gun and shoot them. I don't think that's right. In that scenario I think you should try to leave the situation. If you have a gun take it out and point it at the person yelling at them to back off. Use the moment to start backing away and try to get to safety and call the police. If they lunge back at you to attack you when you have the gun out, then yes I think you are reasonably justified to shoot them. If they just outright attack you and are pummeling you without mercy than you are justified in using your gun. However, shooting someone over any threat or even physical attack should always be considered an option of last resort as any REASONABLE person (why I like the definitions and laws posted) would.
so you are walking down the street and brock lesnar comes walking your direction and he says that he is about to beat you to death. at that moment, you wouldnt rather be armed than unarmed?
i understand that statistically you may have less overall deaths if nobody was armed. but as an individual, how comforting would that statistic be if you happen to be standing in front of someone about the beat the crap out of you and he is saying "im gonna beat you to death." you are just walking to the corner store to pick up some baby formula and condoms; and 5 guys jump out with knives, are you not thinking "i wish i had a gun on me."
if 5 guys jump out the bushes with knives, a gun wont help u much, unless u can accurately shoot 50 rounds per second like they do in the movies
if brock lesnar attacks me, it ll be a unfortunate situation, and obviously at that moment id rather be armed, BUT, thats like sayin if a shark attacks me when im swimming id rather have a knife too
if u learn how to evade conflict or get away, 9/10 u wont be in that situation of gettin beat to death, if u are, well, learn how to fight then and dont be a wuss, kick them in the balls, poke their eyes out, wateva works, what if ur with your girl, and some punk tries to attack her and u dont have a gun, u jus gon wish how u had a gun and not do anyth? a man needs to have enough manhood to be able to protect himself without a gun
It's a tough question. I think the non-FL SYG laws and even those of NJ regarding self-defense follow a logical path.
I don't think you are justified in shooting someone just because they punched you once. As in guy punches you, you pull out a gun and shoot them. I don't think that's right. In that scenario I think you should try to leave the situation. If you have a gun take it out and point it at the person yelling at them to back off. Use the moment to start backing away and try to get to safety and call the police. If they lunge back at you to attack you when you have the gun out, then yes I think you are reasonably justified to shoot them. If they just outright attack you and are pummeling you without mercy than you are justified in using your gun. However, shooting someone over any threat or even physical attack should always be considered an option of last resort as any REASONABLE person (why I like the definitions and laws posted) would.
exactly
its not reasonable to kill someone over one punch
if 5 guys jump out the bushes with knives, a gun wont help u much, unless u can accurately shoot 50 rounds per second like they do in the movies
id say that if 5 guys come up to you with knives and ask for your wallet, you would be successful if you pulled a gun and started shooting. if they come after you immediately then you will probably not have the ability to shoot back.
I found three of the cases where SYG in FL was used by criminals to avoid prosecution and/or received immunity for killing someone from a judge. The cases and links were posted in post #132. Two of them involved drug rivalries that led to killings and one involved a gang gun battle that resulted in the death of a teenager. All ended up being either not prosecuted or being granted immunity under SYG.
I guess I wasn't clear. I think the Florida SYG law is ripe for abuse due to its lack of differentiation between reasonable and sincere belief in danger to self.
I still do not know that SYG caused those drug related homicides, and thus can't be shown to be an example of increased homicides due to SYG.
My belief is that SYG, especially the Florida one, can in and of itself, lead to more deaths. That was what I was referring to when I said, "SYG, is less of a concern with typical "thug" like criminals but rather ordinary citizens who would otherwise let cooler heads prevail in a heightened situation." Or are you suggesting that without SYG those drug/gang related deaths wouldn't have occurred?
I guess what my point is, getting rid of SYG will not lower the gang/drug related homicides.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
