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I guess I wasn't clear. I think the Florida SYG law is ripe for abuse due to its lack of differentiation between reasonable and sincere belief in danger to self.
I still do not know that SYG caused those drug related homicides, and thus can't be shown to be an example of increased homicides due to SYG.
My belief is that SYG, especially the Florida one, can in and of itself, lead to more deaths. That was what I was referring to when I said, "SYG, is less of a concern with typical "thug" like criminals but rather ordinary citizens who would otherwise let cooler heads prevail in a heightened situation." Or are you suggesting that without SYG those drug/gang related deaths wouldn't have occurred?
I guess what my point is, getting rid of SYG will not lower the gang/drug related homicides.
Stechkin said this...
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still gang members tried to use SYG many times, just as police chiefs predicted.
You said this...
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This statement needs proof. Please provide it.
Additionally, just because they "tried" to use it neither proves that the murder otherwise wouldn't have happened, nor that they used it successfully.
SYG, is less of a concern with typical "thug" like criminals but rather ordinary citizens who would otherwise let cooler heads prevail in a heightened situation.
That's why I posted the link. There was someone earlier who questioned that criminals had used SYG as a defense and got away with it. I found the proof and thought that's what you were asking for.
I do agree with you though that those homicides would have occurred regardless. Of course, without SYG, the perpetrators would probably be in prison right now not free and on the streets. Your point about ordinary citizens allowing things to escalate because the "gloves have been removed" is at the core of my concern over FL style SYG laws as well.
FWIW, two studies, one by Texas A&M and one by Georgia State have found a link between SYG laws and increase homicide. Copying from the wiki stubs on the studies...
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A study by Texas A&M economics professors found that the adoption of stand-your-ground laws caused a statistically significant increase in the raw homicide rate, and had only a very small positive effect on deterrence of crime. The authors of the study were unable to determine what percentage of the increase was justifiable homicide, due to the reporting of homicide to the FBI often lacking notation whether the homicide was justifiable or not.
Another analysis of stand-your-ground laws by economists at Georgia State, using monthly data from the U.S. Vital Statistics, found a significant increase in homicide and injury of whites, especially white males. They also analyzed data from the Health Care Utilization Project, which revealed significantly increased rates of emergency room visits and hospital discharges related to gun injuries in states which enacted these laws.
These studies would seem to prove your hunch, though they are certainly disputed, most notably by John Lott the author of "More Guns, Less Crime" who says they have reduced homicide by 9% and violent crime by 11%. Of course Lott isn't exactly an unbiased source.
You are miss stating duty to retreat, it does not remotely mean you cannot defend yourself, even with deadly force.
It means I have to run away rather than defend myself with deadly force.
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The fist fight scenario is valid. Suppose someone punches or shoves or even yells at you, you retaliate in the same manner to protect yourself (or even if YOU start the fight), they begin to run off, should you be allowed to shoot them? In the Florida version of SYG, if you sincerely believe they might turn around and shoot you (even if you have not idea whether or not they have a gun), you have the right to shoot them in the back as they run away.
This is simply false. Neither Florida nor any other state allows for self defense by shooting someone who is fleeing. Texas allows for shooting fleeing felons, but that's not about self defense.
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States like Michigan require you to have a reasonable instead of sincere belief that they will harm you
Florida uses the "reasonable belief" standard as well.
One case ("Michael Jackson") where one gang was ambushed by another and the ambushed group successfully claimed "stand your ground". So what? Just because you're in a gang doesn't mean you give up your right to self defense. "Stand Your Ground" doesn't apply to those engaged in illegal activity at the time, but if people who don't like your colors open fire on you, you still get to defend yourself.
The second case was one drug dealer threatening another, credibly, with deadly force; the threatened dealer shot the one threatening him. Same thing; even if you're a drug dealer you don't have to stand there and get shot by another drug dealer.
The third case ("Nikita Williams") is more of the same; one drug dealer threatened another with deadly force, and the second drug dealer killed him.
What do NJ residents think of this? Do we need some laws like that?
I wonder if you are surprised with how close this poll is in the nj forum. you called me looney toons if I remember correctly.
I do think most people have developed their own idea of what SYG is and what DTR is and are basing their opinion on that rather than the actual laws. Im guilty of that as well.
I wonder if you are surprised with how close this poll is in the nj forum. you called me looney toons if I remember correctly.
I do think most people have developed their own idea of what SYG is and what DTR is and are basing their opinion on that rather than the actual laws. Im guilty of that as well.
most votes are not even from nj residents, people are trolling hard
It means I have to run away rather than defend myself with deadly force.
It means that if you can safely avoid having to use deadly force you should. Shooting someone should be a last resort, not an act of convenience.
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Originally Posted by nybbler
One case ("Michael Jackson") where one gang was ambushed by another and the ambushed group successfully claimed "stand your ground". So what? Just because you're in a gang doesn't mean you give up your right to self defense. "Stand Your Ground" doesn't apply to those engaged in illegal activity at the time, but if people who don't like your colors open fire on you, you still get to defend yourself.
So there's a gang shootout in the middle of the street and it's acceptable because one of the gangs was just "defending" themselves?
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The second case was one drug dealer threatening another, credibly, with deadly force; the threatened dealer shot the one threatening him. Same thing; even if you're a drug dealer you don't have to stand there and get shot by another drug dealer.
One made a verbal threat to the other. When they came face-to-face the victim showed he had a gun in his waistband. The shooter then shot the victim in "self defense".
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The third case ("Nikita Williams") is more of the same; one drug dealer threatened another with deadly force, and the second drug dealer killed him.
Except, according to witnesses, the victim was unarmed.
The whole point was to find examples where "gang bangers" used the law to their advantage. The conflicts were obviously over criminal activity, everyone involved is really guilty as sin and they are simply hiding behind a poorly crafted law.
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Originally Posted by CaptainNJ
I wonder if you are surprised with how close this poll is in the nj forum. you called me looney toons if I remember correctly.
I'm not surprised because any thread on guns or gun laws is heavily trolled on CD at large. You can have this thread on the Montana forum and people from Georgia would be posting in it just because it talked about a gun related topic. The poll has received far more votes than people participating in the thread.
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I do think most people have developed their own idea of what SYG is and what DTR is and are basing their opinion on that rather than the actual laws. Im guilty of that as well.
I think people understand the general concept and it's the details and nuances where they are lacking. I know I've found that some of my assumptions about details in these laws were wrong.
I'm not surprised because any thread on guns or gun laws is heavily trolled on CD at large. You can have this thread on the Montana forum and people from Georgia would be posting in it just because it talked about a gun related topic. The poll has received far more votes than people participating in the thread.
dont a lot of people generally read threads an not actually contribute to the conversation? i wish we knew how many were from nj. i think that more people want to have the right to use a gun to defend themselves than speak out about it. ultimately, nothing is more valuable than your family and id like to have whatever means at my disposal to keep them safe. PDD understands protecting your stuff; but you can burn my house to the ground with my dog & cat inside, blow up my cars and empty my bank account and it still wouldnt bother me in any measurable way compared to losing a member of my family. i think thats how most people feel.
So there's a gang shootout in the middle of the street and it's acceptable because one of the gangs was just "defending" themselves?
If Gang A members start shooting at Gang B members, and Gang B members shoot back, that's self defense on the part of the gang B members, yes. Even in a duty to retreat state, that's likely self defense, because everyone knows you can't outrun a bullet. Self defense applies to everyone.
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Except, according to witnesses, the victim was unarmed.
One witness said Williams was unarmed, but the Times summary says he was armed. "Investigators say they found a loaded revolver next to Williams, whose brother, Ben Johnson, was at the scene of the shooting." Fatal shooting of teenager ruled self defense. | HeraldTribune.com
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The whole point was to find examples where "gang bangers" used the law to their advantage. The conflicts were obviously over criminal activity, everyone involved is really guilty as sin and they are simply hiding behind a poorly crafted law.
Just because a conflict resulting in a killing is over criminal activity doesn't mean it's murder. If one drug dealer attempts to kill another drug dealer in a dispute over territory, it's still self defense if the second drug dealer kills the first.
If Gang A members start shooting at Gang B members, and Gang B members shoot back, that's self defense on the part of the gang B members, yes. Even in a duty to retreat state, that's likely self defense, because everyone knows you can't outrun a bullet. Self defense applies to everyone.
One witness said Williams was unarmed, but the Times summary says he was armed. "Investigators say they found a loaded revolver next to Williams, whose brother, Ben Johnson, was at the scene of the shooting." Fatal shooting of teenager ruled self defense. | HeraldTribune.com
Just because a conflict resulting in a killing is over criminal activity doesn't mean it's murder. If one drug dealer attempts to kill another drug dealer in a dispute over territory, it's still self defense if the second drug dealer kills the first.
Another person asked for examples where "criminals/gang bangers" hid behind the law. They went on to imply that it was a "liberal media lie" and that no such incidents happened. I found three that fit the mold. I'm sure people in favor of SYG won't be holding up those cases as shining examples of how great the law is. I understand your argument and it is of course one necessitated by your support of the law and opinions on "self defense" in general. I personally think that everyone involved in each of those cases should be locked up.
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