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I am going to address incorrect assumptions and group think, both positive and negative, here.
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Originally Posted by Guidance100
Baldwin schools are not anywhere near being at the bottom and they're not low-rated at all. Performance-wise, its actually much better than MANY other districts on Long Island. It's actually ranked higher than MANY other LI school systems that are held in high-esteem. Here are some stats:
You don't understand that particular CD member created ranking system of LI SDs. Ask the person who created that SD ranking system on CD what his perception of Baldwin is. It's only better than other mediocre and the truly horrible SDs on LI. It is a misconception to state that it's "actually ranked higher than MANY other LI school systems that are held in high-esteem." No, it is way below the LI SDs held in high esteem. However, I looked at the list and there ARE high schools that are perceived as "better" than Baldwin which in reality they are not according to the rankings. I myself have fallen into this group think for "recommending" places like Hicksville and East Rockaway for home buyers looking for low property taxes and low prices, YET I "dis-recommend" Baldwin and Baldwin is scholastically ranked higher than those two. So I fell flat on my face right into the below underlined and bolded conundrum:
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Originally Posted by Guidance100
Reputation/perception does not equal Reality.
I agree with the above.
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Originally Posted by Guidance100
As for school violence, the majority of schools throughout the US have violence; especially on the High School level. Unfortunately, that's something that's hard to avoid and is not exclusive to certain types of schools at all. There was actually a girl fight epidemic not too long ago that really shed light on how things can really be in the most "desirable" suburban areas. But as for the whole homecoming game incident, I would have to know more about it to further comment such as: Where were the criminals from? If they had mental illnesses or not? etc, etc..
If miscreants feel perfectly comfortable and free to shoot off handguns and stab people at the homecoming game, it is a reflection of the atmosphere and acceptability of such actions in the area. That level of violence and criminality cannot be considered "typical" high school troublemaking.
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Originally Posted by Guidance100
And I never said (or implied) that any group was "better" than the other.
You said:
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I think much of this can be attributed to the fact that a massive portion of the NYC area's black population is made up of Caribbean immigrants who come here motivated.
It is incorrect in general because stable neighborhoods and quality of life come from residents with middle class sensibilities who are dedicated to protecting their quality of life. These people can be any race, ethnicity, or nationality. "Carribean" or "immigrant" has zero to do with it.
When it comes to Valley Stream (including north) and Elmont, it is incorrect to give this group THE CREDIT for neighborhood stability because, even if the above misconception were correct, the reality is that caribbean immigrants do not make up a majority or even a plurality when it comes to the population of these areas.
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Originally Posted by Guidance100
I'm just saying that an immigrant group and their immediate descendants are more likely to perform&fair better since no immigrant goes out of their way to immigrant to another country to regress. It's common-sense. (This is true for all the races/groups for the exception of Latin Americans since a huge chunk are illegal-immigrants and they wouldn't have the same resources to prosper as a naturalized immigrant would)
I think the underlined is a myth and it is perpetuated toward retaining negative stereotypes of native born black Americans. "Oh the immigrants are so much better!"
American born white people don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at those immigrant polish guys doing construction demo and the immigrant irish gals doing nanny work! They're so great and hardworking and so above the American born white!"
American born hispanics don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at all those immigrant landscapers and maids that are hispanic! They are so much better than you born in this country who will never amount to anything!"
American born asians don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at all those new immigrant men delivering chinese food on their rusty bicycles and women toiling 7 days a week at the nail salons and massage parlors! You asians born here are just plain lazy!"
But American born blacks? Oh yeah. The "you are black and were born in America so you are automatically thought of as ghetto until you prove otherwise" is alive and well. "The africans are so much nicer and the caribbeans are so much more hard working and all you American blacks want to do is sit around on welfare and commit crimes and get money for nothing!" is still regularly tossed around about American born blacks.
Yes, reputation/perception does not equal reality. There is a positive stereotype in the NYC metro area towards caribbean immigrants. However, all of these immigrants are not positive. Look up the Jamaican shower posse or the people who killed P.O. Edward Byrnes (Pappy Mason's crew). We are going to find social miscreants among caribbean immigrants as well as among anyone else.
Then you go to England and there is a negative stereotype of caribbean immigrants. Yet I am sure that not everyone who emigrates to there from the caribbean is a criminal and moocher.
So what's the big difference between caribbean immigrants who go to NYC and those who go to London? Surely there must be, right, because of the turnaround in local perception?
Is there some sort of "carribean emigrant center" that sorts them out and assigns them to different countries:
"Hey you, I see you reproduce like a stray cat and never married any of the baby daddys and never worked an honest day in your life. I am assigning you to emigrate to London where you will fit in. I know you want to go to NYC, and, yes, if you keep reproducing their American welfare system will take care of you, but you are definitely London material and that's where I have to send you."
"Hey you, I see you have held several steady jobs and never got in trouble with the law. I am assigning you to go to NYC because that is what the people there are expecting."
The truth of the matter? Everybody is an individual, including caribbean immigrants.
As for "no immigrant goes out of their way to immigrant to another country to regress" being "common-sense" ... there are plenty of them that do. My friend's middle class raised but ghetto acting stepbrother is getting deported back to Brazil after he gets out of prison. He's one of thousands and thousands. Just because someone is in another country does not turn them into a "good citizen" if they didn't have it in them in the first place.
All teh supports which you mention are tied to some one having awork history. So your average inner city male who has never had a job on the books isnt entitled to any of this.
Indeed his best bet is to get some baby mama pregnant and not marry her so she can get WIC, Section 8, medicaid etc, and then he has her give him cash, or allow him to illegally live with her. This is what our social support system encourges, and then we wonder why so many out of wedlock babies.
Except Section 8 has not accepted new applications since 2008. His best bet would be to move in illegally with a woman already on Section 8, or alternatively stay at home with his relatives. That is, if they'll even take him.
The reason why so many blacks males are jailed is because of possession of narcotics...often weed. Yet we all know that per capita consumption of narcotics is MUCH higher among young whites than among young blacks.
I invite those to tell us why this favoritism.
Now of course if you expose 18 y/o kids to 40 y/o career criminals some of these 19 y/0 will graduate from a little bag of weed. After all how easy is it for a jail bird to land a job.
But if you know the cops are already out to get you or give you a harder time, why on god's green earth would you go out with an illegal substance like a FOOL?
I remember the 90s, when a lot of Black men rather aggressively and boldly sold weed to people in public. If you didn't want to buy from them, they would accuse you of not liking blacks (and I'm Black) Now people behaving like this have no reason to complain about getting arrested, and they have responsibility in this as well.
The reason why so many blacks males are jailed is because of possession of narcotics...often weed. Yet we all know that per capita consumption of narcotics is MUCH higher among young whites than among young blacks.
I invite those to tell us why this favoritism.
Now of course if you expose 18 y/o kids to 40 y/o career criminals some of these 19 y/0 will graduate from a little bag of weed. After all how easy is it for a jail bird to land a job.
This is very, very true based on my studies a few years ago at college. Jailbirds will most likely end up getting a job either cutting hair at a barber shop or working in the back of a restaurant washing dishes or making food. It's really hard for criminals to get parts of their records expunged.
Riaelsie, You make a lot of valid points. I told another poster listen don't take my word for it. Who the hell am I? I'm a anonymous poster on a free web site. Go to a Community Board meeting. Ask the captain or inspector of the pct in charge the crime stats. All the pcts have a "trend" where crime is occurring. That's how they determine where the manpower is going. Are there a ton of good people in Coop City? Yes, of course. But in all honesty section 5 always had their share of problems. Where do the crips,bloods,DDP,MS13, and trinitainao's ply their trade? UES? Village? NO, in predominately black or latino areas. Are their criminals in white affluent areas, yes of course. look no further than the pill epidemic going on in LI and rest of the country.
Ah yes, Section 5. I lived in Section 5 for awhile. At least when I was growing up, it was pretty much as good as all the other sections tho it always seemed to get a bad rep. PS 160 was a fine public school. Perception is different than reality. It probably has changed over the years, but Bldg 29 is still one of my favorite buildings and the view is AWESOME.
It's about class. You have to compare true apples to apples. Bangers will not ply their trade OVERTLY in affluent areas. Teaneck, NJ, with a big black professional population isn't dealing with lots of crime. Let's keep this in mind, it's not that minorities are presdisposed to criminality (for example, neither you nor I are criminals and our kids won't be either, yet we are minorities). rather you have the wannabe bangers/thugs. Many of these kids are middle classed, from two earner/two parent families who mimick what they see on television and hear on the radio. Thinking that committing petty crimes is "oh-so-cool". These kids don't know what it is to truly struggle. I don't think this is a minority "problem" but rather a teenage/parenting issue.
The reason why so many blacks males are jailed is because of possession of narcotics...often weed. Yet we all know that per capita consumption of narcotics is MUCH higher among young whites than among young blacks.
I invite those to tell us why this favoritism.
There is a perception that black families are unstable or non-existent. Racial profiling helps support this generalization, although I believe it is slowly changing. The essentialism of race is giving way a bit to culture and class.
Given converse assumptions that white families are stable, that they will do their own policing and rehabilitating after the fact, the police and the courts treat white offenders with more lenience.
rather you have the wannabe bangers/thugs. Many of these kids are middle classed, from two earner/two parent families who mimick what they see on television and hear on the radio. Thinking that committing petty crimes is "oh-so-cool". These kids don't know what it is to truly struggle. I don't think this is a minority "problem" but rather a teenage/parenting issue.
The "bangers" and "thugs" around here are the real deal. Nothing middle class about it.
The middle class kids go to private schools or got tested into one of the better schools.
I think the underlined is a myth and it is perpetuated toward retaining negative stereotypes of native born black Americans. "Oh the immigrants are so much better!"
American born white people don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at those immigrant polish guys doing construction demo and the immigrant irish gals doing nanny work! They're so great and hardworking and so above the American born white!"
American born hispanics don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at all those immigrant landscapers and maids that are hispanic! They are so much better than you born in this country who will never amount to anything!"
American born asians don't receive this attitude: "Oh look at all those new immigrant men delivering chinese food on their rusty bicycles and women toiling 7 days a week at the nail salons and massage parlors! You asians born here are just plain lazy!"
But American born blacks? Oh yeah. The "you are black and were born in America so you are automatically thought of as ghetto until you prove otherwise" is alive and well. "The africans are so much nicer and the caribbeans are so much more hard working and all you American blacks want to do is sit around on welfare and commit crimes and get money for nothing!" is still regularly tossed around about American born blacks.
Yes, reputation/perception does not equal reality. There is a positive stereotype in the NYC metro area towards caribbean immigrants. However, all of these immigrants are not positive. Look up the Jamaican shower posse or the people who killed P.O. Edward Byrnes (Pappy Mason's crew). We are going to find social miscreants among caribbean immigrants as well as among anyone else.
Then you go to England and there is a negative stereotype of caribbean immigrants. Yet I am sure that not everyone who emigrates to there from the caribbean is a criminal and moocher.
So what's the big difference between caribbean immigrants who go to NYC and those who go to London? Surely there must be, right, because of the turnaround in local perception?
Is there some sort of "carribean emigrant center" that sorts them out and assigns them to different countries:
"Hey you, I see you reproduce like a stray cat and never married any of the baby daddys and never worked an honest day in your life. I am assigning you to emigrate to London where you will fit in. I know you want to go to NYC, and, yes, if you keep reproducing their American welfare system will take care of you, but you are definitely London material and that's where I have to send you."
"Hey you, I see you have held several steady jobs and never got in trouble with the law. I am assigning you to go to NYC because that is what the people there are expecting."
The truth of the matter? Everybody is an individual, including caribbean immigrants.
As for "no immigrant goes out of their way to immigrant to another country to regress" being "common-sense" ... there are plenty of them that do. My friend's middle class raised but ghetto acting stepbrother is getting deported back to Brazil after he gets out of prison. He's one of thousands and thousands. Just because someone is in another country does not turn them into a "good citizen" if they didn't have it in them in the first place.
People do positively view Mexicans, and even Dominicans, in comparison to Puerto Ricans. I have heard many employers say so, and not just white ones either.
A fact of life is that too many American minorities are caught in a poverty trap of dysfunction, and it is also true that mnay kids of these immigrant groups are headed in the same direction. Debatably a result of heavier exposure to institutional racism that exerts both external and self imposed barriers to upward mobility. Their parents are less exposed to this as they arrive as "naive" adults when it comes to US style racism.
But it is also important to understand that no group is monolithic. While AAs, on average, will do worse than black immigrants, it is indeed a fact that when one adjusts for educational levels, AAs do better a sthey know the system better, have stronger social networks which integrate them into good opportunities, and so they form the bulk of the high income blacks in the NY area.
As in all things in life it is quite complicated. Yes Caribbean immigrants to the USA have higher incomes, tend to be more upwardly mobile, and are quite likely to be home owners. Does this mean that all Caribbean immigrants are all positive contributors to society? Of course not.
Does it mean that Caribbean immigrants are not doing better, ON AVERAGE, than African Americans? Of course they are because migration is a selective process and it is the most motivated who migrate. Their kids however are not necessarily as motivated, and are definitely less inclined to sacrifice their present condition in the hope of a better future.
It is not known with any credibility whether the second geneartion Caribbean people living in the USA are doing better than their parents. Sure some are, for the same reasons that better educated AAs are. But too many are not.
The UK is a very different society from the USA so one cannot compare the two. The Caribbean migrants to the UK came from poorer, more rural backgrounds (when compared to US bound Caribbean migrants) and entered a society which was declining in the 1950s and 60s. The immigrant generation did the best that they could do and were more likely to work, and less likely to depend on welfare, than even native English whites, and did better than the Irish. But they remained stuck at the bottom, and their kids were exposed to the most negative aspects of the British class/caste system.
The UK second generation Caribbean populations basically do as well as their peer native white population, and unfortunately many have fallen into the poverty trap. But guess what! Over 50% are married to/or live with white English girls, so they arent some isolated group. In fcat their problem is that they are TOO integrated into the wrong section of British society.
No one comes to the USA looking for welfare, as maybe some went to the UK(maybe even Canada). West Indians are known to be very low users of welfare. Indeed in the NE Bronx the rule of thumb is that NYCHA has mainly black Americans and the Caribbean blacks own/rent the private homes. Now this is not to say that there isnt a vibrant criminal community among Jamaicans, and increasingly among second generation Haitians, Guyanese, etc.
You will recall on the TV show "In Living Color" the Heymon family boasted about the large numbers of jobs that they held, and their scant respect for Black Americans, who they perceived lack a similar ethic. Well one result of this are kids raising kids, because mummy and dady are too busy working three jobs to be at home, to raise them. And that almost never ends up well.
But if you know the cops are already out to get you or give you a harder time, why on god's green earth would you go out with an illegal substance like a FOOL?
.
True but then you are an educated person. You know that 1+1=2. So if the cops target you for racist reasons then you are MORE likely to be caught than another kid who is white and who has drugs on him. The cops view the black kid as the menace, and the white kid as some one who needs drug counseling.
My problem how ever is when the black kid, who is trying, gets treated as a stereotype. Not only pressured by the negative elements, but also from the authorities.
This is very, very true based on my studies a few years ago at college. Jailbirds will most likely end up getting a job either cutting hair at a barber shop or working in the back of a restaurant washing dishes or making food. It's really hard for criminals to get parts of their records expunged.
Yep my barber (he has a chair, he doesnt own the shop), had a criminal record as a kid. Paid his dues to society, which among other things, taught him how he wasted his life. I use him as encouragement as I admire that he has turned himself around, and is very involved in his kids' lives, despite the usual baby mama drama. He is very insistent that his sons do their school work, using his life as an example of what happens if they do not.
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