Does it annoy you that homeowners are renting their basements (rent, credit)

[brooklynborndad]

there are certainly people including native born, who live in basements.

People who live in hostel style arrangements, all working age males, at least here in NoVa, tend to be very recent immigrants.

Here in NoVa, where, currently, unskilled minimum wage employment is relatively easily available to anyone WITH documentation, where the bottom of the social economic ladder is folks who must take day labor jobs that are not steady, and, IIUC, sometimes do NOT pay minimum wage - the folks at that rung of the ladder often are undocumented. Usually I imagine. Almost always. I would say that probably justifies a guess that folks living crowded in substandard housing, crowded to hostel style, are mostly undocumented.

In the story I cited, further evidence was that they were unusually quiet (of course legal residents, citizens, etc, could also be unusually quiet I suppose). What confirmed it for me is that they disappeared all of a sudden. It was actually rather uncanny.

Could they still have been just a set of eccentric legal residents? I suppose. Could the increase in global temperatures right directly after increases in atmospheric CO2 be a coincidence? I suppose.

[Tiger Beer]

You string along a ton of sfh's all around a high density world city, and it's inevitable that people will end up renting basements and others happy to live in them.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

You string along a ton of sfh's all around a high density world city, and it's inevitable that people will end up renting basements and others happy to live in them.

that raises issues of urban planning and what the market really wants in terms of apts vs SFH's, that I tried to raise above, but I think it got lost in the more emotional debate about immigration status.

Im not sure its an easy thing to debate though, as the only development we can really control is NEW development, and new apartments won't directly ease the shortage of cheap multifamily housing (and some will argue that in some places where they are built on what had been lowrise apt complexes, they decrease the supply of cheap Multifam housing) I think that improving the supply of new multifamily housing WILL result in a filter down effect that WILL lower prices of older multifamily housing, but I can't easily prove it, and Im not sure its worth the debate here.

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by katyusha25

We're going to get in trouble for going off topic

10 lashes for everyone!

Just kidding.

FWIW, my first thought when this thread started was of younger/newly arriving white-collar professionals that were either suffering sticker shock from apartment rates or were being paid below-average salaries. The idea that multiple people making day labor wages might crowd into the same space isn't too surprising. That said...

Focusing on the general topic of immigrants of questionable legal status is best left to the Illegal Immigration sub-forum under Politics and Other Controversies. Returning to the original topic will lengthen this thread as well as minimize infractions.

[Alltheusernamesaretaken]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

You string along a ton of sfh's all around a high density world city, and it's inevitable that people will end up renting basements and others happy to live in them.

Good point.

From what I can see, we've been experiencing a change in our culture over the past 30, 40, 50 years
to the point where a family of 3 or 4, say, is now accustomed to looking for a house much too large for them,
too large for them to clean themselves (esp. if both parents are working), with a yard they
cannot take care of themselves, etc.

whereas

1/2 a century ago people tended to buy a house that was reasonable
for their size family, even perhaps too small, and still made it work.

Anything "reasonable" now tends to be in low-income housing developments, which carry their own problems.
So you may have what would normally be middle-class families (or couples, or whatnot) stretching their budget to the limit
looking for "acceptable" housing in a decent neighborhood (esp important when you have to take schools into consideration) and it is just too much house.

Tie in the current economy, and people want to make a few bucks on that extra space in that expensive area and there ya go.

[oneasterisk]

I'm not sure if building more apartments would make a huge difference, unless the rents are controlled and I'm vehemently opposed to rent control. New apartments would charge whatever the market rate is, and that prices out a lot of folks who are new to the country.

The people renting basements probably would not go to an apartment because the property management would be more strict than a Joe Landlord, require background checks, employment verification, control # of tenants etc. Yes Joe Landlord could also require all of that, but they could also be willing to bend a bit more on the rules than a professional PM.

I'd also caution that just because you see a lot of people living under one roof it doesn't means it's a flop house. A lot of cultures it's very normal for multi-generations to live in the same house. When my family and I first came to Virginia as legal immigrants we stayed at my Uncle's house. At one point it was 6 in our family and 5 in my Uncle's staying in an 1100 sq/ft house. It was tight, but thankfully our parents were able to buy a TH of our own after being in the US a couple of months.

Another time my Sister and B-I-L moved back in after the birth of their daughter. We had 7 people in that SFH with about 6 cars parked out front. All of the adults needed a vehicle because we all had jobs or school to get to.

Moderator Cut

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by oneasterisk

I'm not sure if building more apartments would make a huge difference, unless the rents are controlled and I'm vehemently opposed to rent control. New apartments would charge whatever the market rate is, and that prices out a lot of folks who are new to the country..

As I said, I think theres a bump down factor - high rents for new apts means some folks who would choose them, instead end up in say 20 yo hi rise apts with amenities, which raises rents for those, which in turn pushes people who would otherwise be in those into the old garden apts, etc. That doesnt address the draw of a basement apt for someone whose documentation is an issue in renting an apt at any building, but it might for the folks with documentation who double up in houses soley because of rents.

[Caladium]

Originally Posted by Alltheusernamesaretaken

From what I can see, we've been experiencing a change in our culture over the past 30, 40, 50 years
to the point where a family of 3 or 4, say, is now accustomed to looking for a house much too large for them,
too large for them to clean themselves (esp. if both parents are working), with a yard they
cannot take care of themselves, etc.

I'm not sure how big of a house you're talking about here, but FWIW I live in a 4,000 sf house out in the burbs and taking care of it is not as difficult as you might think. I'm able to work, raise a family, clean the house, and do my own gardening. My neighbors seem to be able to do so, as well--although some have cleaning services and others hire the local kids to mow the lawn.

Getting back to the topic, I'm sure there are people who do rent basements but I don't think it's quite as common as this thread makes it sound. I don't happen to know of anyone in my neighborhood who is renting out their basement. I know most of my neighbors and been in a lot of their basements and mostly what's down there are ping pong tables and a place for the kids to play.

Think about it--if you're living in a house would you rent out your basement to a bunch of scary people engaged in illegal activities? Maybe some would, but I doubt it's that common, and I think the typical person who rents a basement is more likely to be a local kid working his first job, or maybe a friend of a friend going through an expensive divorce, something like that.

I don't know, maybe immigrants are more likely tenants in the less expensive areas--but it doesn't seem that common out my way. And you wouldn't rent your basement to a bunch of them because then you'd have a rooming house and that's against the law.

[brooklynborndad]

Originally Posted by Caladium

Think about it--if you're living in a house would you rent out your basement to a bunch of scary people engaged in illegal activities?

if there are folks renting out basements DESPITE the quite legitimate safety concerns, imagine how many more find the economics of it desirable, but are only deterred by the safety concern?

[saganista]

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Here in NoVa, where, currently, unskilled minimum wage employment is relatively easily available to anyone WITH documentation, where the bottom of the social economic ladder is folks who must take day labor jobs that are not steady, and, IIUC, sometimes do NOT pay minimum wage - the folks at that rung of the ladder often are undocumented.

So much for the notion that illegal immigrants are stealing jobs from American workers.

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

I would say that probably justifies a guess that folks living crowded in substandard housing, crowded to hostel style, are mostly undocumented.

I would say that probably you are making this stuff up as you go along. There are undocumented immigrants living in NoVa. You don't actually who or where they are, and like all those sent out before you, you would have a difficult time telling if you were specifically assigned to go investigate.

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

What confirmed it for me is that they disappeared all of a sudden. It was actually rather uncanny.

Actually being legal is not a protection. When the fox is in the henhouse, every hen who can takes flight.

Originally Posted by brooklynborndad

Could they still have been just a set of eccentric legal residents? I suppose. Could the increase in global temperatures right directly after increases in atmospheric CO2 be a coincidence? I suppose.

Scientific consensus as against a bunch of vague, untested, personal assumptions. Makes sense to some, I guess.