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I had so much undergrad debt (which included tuition AND housing), it took me 15 years to pay off. So, yes, I understand loans and understand that she will pay them back. But I also understand that I am now paying to assist in her housing. (and this is not housing for an undergrad degree, because she has that. It's housing for a graduate degree, something many people cannot afford to pursue.) While she will have to pay the tuition loans back, this housing assistance is free to her, but out of my pocket.
You didn't answer my question. In what situation would you be okay with the government assisting someone in need?
I don't see any issue with her pursuing a graduate degree. If she is getting a loan for it, it doesn't cost me or you any money, it gives her a chance to pursue a higher paying job, so that she doesn't become dependent on people like me and you. What is wrong with that? Her being in graduate school is in some way irrelevant to your point because the government is not paying for her schooling, it's her housing, whether she was in graduate school or not. Did you know that we are also paying for people that are sitting at home, not working, who are just having kids left and right, expecting you and me to pay for them. Is that what you prefer?
You didn't answer my question. In what situation would you be okay with the government assisting someone in need?
I don't see any issue with her pursuing a graduate degree. If she is getting a loan for it, it doesn't cost me or you any money, it gives her a chance to pursue a higher paying job, so that she doesn't become dependent on people like me and you. What is wrong with that? Her being in graduate school is in some way irrelevant to your point because the government is not paying for her schooling, it's her housing, whether she was in graduate school or not. Did you know that we are also paying for people that are sitting at home, not working, who are just having kids left and right, expecting you and me to pay for them. Is that what you prefer?
I prefer as limited assistance as possible and advocate social assistance from private entities, not government. Her being in graduate school DOES cost me money, as I am paying for her housing assistance. If she didn't spend this time going to classes, she could have a second job, which could cover this housing. Most people in this country know that the onus is on oneself to succeed; and they do whatever it takes to get there. Government assistance should be limited to those who are in a last resort situation, not those who need a few extra bucks to earn their "luxury" graduate degree.
I prefer as limited assistance as possible and advocate social assistance from private entities, not government. Her being in graduate school DOES cost me money, as I am paying for her housing assistance. If she didn't spend this time going to classes, she could have a second job, which could cover this housing. Most people in this country know that the onus is on oneself to succeed; and they do whatever it takes to get there. Government assistance should be limited to those who are in a last resort situation, not those who need a few extra bucks to earn their "luxury" graduate degree.
But you could make that argument about anyone who doesn't make enough money. You could tell them, that they don't deserve assistance, so just get another job, then there would never be a need for programs like this. I understand where you are coming from though, but I know people who have degrees that have absolutely no chance of making a living salary for this region. Given that, suppose those individuals are unable to get a second job, what do you recommend then? Do you suggest that those individuals just not go to graduate school? For some people, especially in these times, there aren't many jobs out there, so the only means to get a job maybe to take a lesser paying one. I'm not saying that is her situation, but I'm at least trying to add some perspective here. Is getting a second job a plausible option or even one that has been explored and failed?
I look at it like this, for a short period of time we could give someone the means to no longer be dependent on government assistance for the rest of their lives versus having someone who has to live on the street because they can't afford to live in this region and take care of their kids. I actually would have no problem privatizing social assistance. I would gladly give my money to those who are in need instead of Congressmen who get paid not to pass a budget for 4 years and I can respect your decision not to do the same. I do however believe that if we didn't have taxes, and the government didn't have programs like this, people would be too selfish to help others out. I don't mean helping in a sense of enabling, but I mean giving someone a chance for a short period of time to better their situation.
But you could make that argument about anyone who doesn't make enough money. You could tell them, that they don't deserve assistance, so just get another job, then there would never be a need for programs like this.
BINGO!
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Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
I know people who have degrees that have absolutely no chance of making a living salary for this region.
No one forces anyone to live in any particular place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
Given that, suppose those individuals are unable to get a second job, what do you recommend then? Do you suggest that those individuals just not go to graduate school?
In what world do you live in that a graduate degree guarantees more money than an undergrad? Businesses today are looking for experience, not multiple degrees. What if she still can't find a job? Should we pay for housing through her Doctorate? What if she still can't make ends meet? Where is your limit for "temporary" assistance?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtvatitans
I look at it like this, for a short period of time we could give someone the means to no longer be dependent on government assistance for the rest of their lives
She has the means to no longer be dependent on government assistance, it's called a college degree. Getting a masters doesn't increase that. But, this does give me an interesting idea. I think I would be supportive of such programs if everyone who received government assistance while obtaining the "means to no longer be dependent on government assistance" would sign a waiver indicating that they would never accept any government assistance or subsidies in the future. That would be a guarateed "means".
Well why didn't you just say all along that you don't agree with government funded social programs? You made it seem as though you would consider it, but in reality you just don't agree with it.
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Originally Posted by spencgr
No one forces anyone to live in any particular place.
No but you aren't going to be a government contractor in a rural area or be a agricultural scientist in a city. Certain areas dictate what jobs are available. If this is one of the few places that someone can get a job in their field, then how can you blame them? It's not like there are tons of jobs out there for people to get. It's really hard to say what her situation is and why she is here without knowing her whole story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencgr
In what world do you live in that a graduate degree guarantees more money than an undergrad? Businesses today are looking for experience, not multiple degrees. What if she still can't find a job? Should we pay for housing through her Doctorate? What if she still can't make ends meet? Where is your limit for "temporary" assistance?
So then what exactly is the point of a graduate degree, if you aren't going to get a higher salary?
If she can't find a job then I would say if it were up to me, that there would be a limit that has to be set. The problem with these programs is people find ways to continue forever and ever in them, but that's not the purpose of them. They aren't there to enable people and make them dependent. They are there to make people more independent when they are used in their proper form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spencgr
She has the means to no longer be dependent on government assistance, it's called a college degree. Getting a masters doesn't increase that. But, this does give me an interesting idea. I think I would be supportive of such programs if everyone who received government assistance while obtaining the "means to no longer be dependent on government assistance" would sign a waiver indicating that they would never accept any government assistance or subsidies in the future. That would be a guarateed "means".
And you do realize that half of the people who receive college degrees now don't have jobs right? So does a college degree guarantee you a job? I know people who have degrees in fields where the jobs are either sparse or shrinking.
They may not have waivers that they sign, but most of these programs aren't permanent programs. Do you know anybody that has ever used these programs or are do you understand how they work? How does one decide to no longer be dependent on government assistance? If they are required to work or go to school anyway, wouldn't it just make more sense for them to not be dependent. You make it sound like it's easy for people to get jobs these days. Have you actually seen the economy outside the DC area?
Oh so you did pop up again I see? I know that the other poster already responded but maybe I can help you out a little bit as well.
1. No, but the reason behind the heavy population concentration in metropolitan areas (DMV included) is that that is where the jobs tend to be. So wouldn't it be prudent to live somewhere you have a higher chance of getting a job?
2. The federal world; where entry level positions are dictated by your education.
3. A college degree does not the means to be independent of assistance make. It SHOULD work that way, unfortunately it doesn't. The Bureau of Labor Statistics could perhaps provide some more insight into the matter, but I'm sure you've seen the reports on unemployment.
quote=spencgr;28536073]BINGO!
No one forces anyone to live in any particular place.
In what world do you live in that a graduate degree guarantees more money than an undergrad? Businesses today are looking for experience, not multiple degrees. What if she still can't find a job? Should we pay for housing through her Doctorate? What if she still can't make ends meet? Where is your limit for "temporary" assistance?
She has the means to no longer be dependent on government assistance, it's called a college degree. Getting a masters doesn't increase that. But, this does give me an interesting idea. I think I would be supportive of such programs if everyone who received government assistance while obtaining the "means to no longer be dependent on government assistance" would sign a waiver indicating that they would never accept any government assistance or subsidies in the future. That would be a guarateed "means".[/quote]
I prefer as limited assistance as possible and advocate social assistance from private entities, not government. Her being in graduate school DOES cost me money, as I am paying for her housing assistance. If she didn't spend this time going to classes, she could have a second job, which could cover this housing. Most people in this country know that the onus is on oneself to succeed; and they do whatever it takes to get there. Government assistance should be limited to those who are in a last resort situation, not those who need a few extra bucks to earn their "luxury" graduate degree.
Are you familiar with the requirements for an MBA program? Because there is no job I could possibly get that would allow me to work for those hours. I attend school, depending on the semester 2-3 x/week for maybe about six hours total (if that). Do you know a job that will hire you and allow you to work 6 hours/week?
2. The federal world; where entry level positions are dictated by your education.
ENTRY level federal positions require a MBA? The issue may be that you are in the wrong field.
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Originally Posted by pdc29
3. A college degree does not the means to be independent of assistance make. It SHOULD work that way, unfortunately it doesn't. The Bureau of Labor Statistics could perhaps provide some more insight into the matter, but I'm sure you've seen the reports on unemployment.
Of the people I know in this area, approximately 60% have a Bachelors degree, 30% have a Masters (of which 75% of them are in a field that has nothing to do with their Masters), and 10% have no college degree. Not a single one accepts government subsidies for housing. Seems these people are able to make it work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdc29
Are you familiar with the requirements for an MBA program? Because there is no job I could possibly get that would allow me to work for those hours. I attend school, depending on the semester 2-3 x/week for maybe about six hours total (if that). Do you know a job that will hire you and allow you to work 6 hours/week?
So, you only attend class, you don't study or write papers outside of class? 6 hours in class should equal (at least) another 6 hours out of class. But let's just say it's only 6. Let's see, what could you do? Babysit? Walk dogs? Clean houses? I've come up with three, do you need more?
ENTRY level federal positions require a MBA? The issue may be that you are in the wrong field.
You asked for an answer and I gave you one. You sounded as though you had absolutely no idea where on earth somebody would make more money with a Master's degree as opposed to a Bachelor's degree. And it has nothing to do with any one "field". This is an OPM regulation. It is any Master's or Law Degree that puts you at the next higher GS level. So you could have an MBA and work in maybe budget policy, an MA and work in foreign affairs, an MS and work in biology, or a JD and work in the OIG or GC.
Of the people I know in this area, approximately 60% have a Bachelors degree, 30% have a Masters (of which 75% of them are in a field that has nothing to do with their Masters), and 10% have no college degree. Not a single one accepts government subsidies for housing. Seems these people are able to make it work.
This goes back to the people that you know; I seem to remember you tried this with me by saying you knew people with professional degrees who didn't need or apply for assistance. I on the other hand, knew three. Obviously neither one of our circles are representative of the entire area, and it borders on arrogant to assume so and use that as a basis to lecture others. There's a bevy of other demographic factors you've left out, such as age, years experience, familial status etc. These matter as well.
So, you only attend class, you don't study or write papers outside of class? 6 hours in class should equal (at least) another 6 hours out of class. But let's just say it's only 6. Let's see, what could you do? Babysit? Walk dogs? Clean houses? I've come up with three, do you need more?
I study and write papers either 1. During my lunch break or 2. very, very late at night. The reason behind that is those few hours that I'm home at a somewhat normal time it's spent going over homework with my children, signing agendas etc. or filling out the next batch of paperwork for my son,who's disabled. If I WERE to take on another job, I'd have to find someone to care for them (People aren't ecstatic about babysitting their kids while you have your own there, I've tried that). Walking dogs and cleaning houses with two children, one who is disabled is unrealistic. Considering how expensive child care is ESPECIALLY for special needs children, I'd end up with some additional form of assistance. Believe it or not, I actually try to use as few programs as possible.
I study and write papers either 1. During my lunch break or 2. very, very late at night. The reason behind that is those few hours that I'm home at a somewhat normal time it's spent going over homework with my children, signing agendas etc. or filling out the next batch of paperwork for my son,who's disabled. If I WERE to take on another job, I'd have to find someone to care for them (People aren't ecstatic about babysitting their kids while you have your own there, I've tried that). Walking dogs and cleaning houses with two children, one who is disabled is unrealistic. Considering how expensive child care is ESPECIALLY for special needs children, I'd end up with some additional form of assistance. Believe it or not, I actually try to use as few programs as possible.
So, your children sit in class with you?
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