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I understand homebuyer2013 - he is simply expressing the ignorant point of view (in my opinion, at least) that inflicts some of the people in NoVA, which is make sure you buy a home zoned for schools with the highest average test scores, lowest percentages of ESL and FARM students, and highest percentage of white students. To many people, that is what defines a superior school because, of course, the teachers and administration don't really matter. What matters is you surround your little snowflake with as many people exactly like him or her and avoid at all costs any exposure to a "less than savory" element.
Personally, I find some of the views that get expressed about the "lesser" public schools in this area to be pretty obnoxious and bordering on racism. I fully understand wanting your child to get the best education possible, but it seems like some people will totally write off a particular school because the greatschools score isn't a 9 or 10 or because there is more than a handful of ESL or FARM students. Maybe I'll be singing a different tune when/if I have children of my own, but I think people should calm down a little bit when it comes to ranking and comparing public schools in this area. Sure, do your homework on the schools your children would attend when considering where to live, but I would not personally write off an entire school simply because there are more than a handful of ESL/FARM/minority children attending that school.
Except it's not.
It's a point of view backed up by plenty of education research.
The reality is that as the poverty rate in a school climbs, test scores decrease. There is a tipping point for the poverty rate where a child in a higher poverty school who is not in poverty will not receive as good of an education as they could despite the fact that they may have wealthy, educated and involved parents at home.
Schools with higher poverty rates (that normally includes ESL students) can not solely focus on education like school with lower rates. This is because the higher poverty rate schools must also devote time and resources to provide social services to both students and parents.
And you are correct, once you have children, your perspective will change.
It's a point of view backed up by plenty of education research.
The reality is that as the poverty rate in a school climbs, test scores decrease. There is a tipping point for the poverty rate where a child in a higher poverty school who is not in poverty will not receive as good of an education as they could despite the fact that they may have wealthy, educated and involved parents at home.
Schools with higher poverty rates (that normally includes ESL students) can not solely focus on education like school with lower rates. This is because the higher poverty rate schools must also devote time and resources to provide social services to both students and parents.
And you are correct, once you have children, your perspective will change.
I'd be delighted to see some of the research you are referencing that would support the idea that a child cannot receive just as good of an education if he has some ESL, FARM, or minority students in his/her school or classroom instead of all white, middle class students.
You know, I actually received free lunches myself growing up. I lived with my single mom in section 8 housing, and I went to an elementary school that had a higher percentage of FARM students than the other elementary schools in my high school pyramid. Thinking back, I feel really bad that the non-FARM kids had to go to school with me. I must have really brought them down in their learning. I guess I must have gotten admitted to UC Berkeley for college and then later to the University of Pennsylvania for law school because the admissions people must have just had sympathy for all of the bad education I received growing up. I mean, there's really no other explanation for it, is there? According to your research, I must have received a worse education than those at the schools with less FARM students, right?
I'm not claiming there isn't some correlation between poverty and lower test scores - any fool can clearly see that in the statistics. But, if you think your child will automatically receive a better education because you picked a school with the lowest percentages of ESL/FARM/minority students, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
But, if you think your child will automatically receive a better education because you picked a school with the lowest percentages of ESL/FARM/minority students, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you
Automatically? No, but here's the rub. If I send my kid to one of these schools, will my Johnnie do ok or even excel in this environment? Are resources spent on children bringing them to just meet the bar or are their programs that help children succeed at all levels. Granted, I don't think anyone should make sweeping generalizations of any school without more information, but lacking more information, parents make a "safer" bet.
My Mom was a public school teacher in some of the worst parts of PG County for 25 years and she always said she had to teach to the lowest common denominator. Also, these schools were rough and sometimes dangerous. I was bussed 45 minutes from my neighborhood to attend school in another part of PG County and I can tell you that an enormous amount of time and energy was just spent in keeping kids safe.
I am a firm believer that a good education starts with the parents/at home. If the parents are involved and push their child's education, the child will do well and excel no matter what school that child goes to. Parents need to work with the teacher to ensure a good education. They can't just toss their kids in school and say, "well, the school has good test scores so Johnny is going to do well."
I base this on personal experience as well as observations. Most of the people I personally know who are successful in life didn't go to the best elementary school, best high school, or best college (if they even went to college). Heck, one of the most sucessful people I know is a friend of mine (from high school). She was a refugee, only spoke Farsi when I met her... growing up with her was a learning experience for both of us. Today she's an environmental engineering consultant and has a house in McLean. What drove her was her own character and her parents who stressed school and education. And the high school we went to was ranked low in our state.
Of course, with Northern Virginia and all it's resources, even the "worst" schools would have ranked as some of the best in other areas. It's all relative.
Automatically? No, but here's the rub. If I send my kid to one of these schools, will my Johnnie do ok or even excel in this environment? Are resources spent on children bringing them to just meet the bar or are their programs that help children succeed at all levels. Granted, I don't think anyone should make sweeping generalizations of any school without more information, but lacking more information, parents make a "safer" bet.
My Mom was a public school teacher in some of the worst parts of PG County for 25 years and she always said she had to teach to the lowest common denominator. Also, these schools were rough and sometimes dangerous. I was bussed 45 minutes from my neighborhood to attend school in another part of PG County and I can tell you that an enormous amount of time and energy was just spent in keeping kids safe.
I hear you and I totally agree, but there is a big difference between comparing schools in PG County and comparing among various school pyramids in Fairfax County. You are already bringing in a lot of factors outside of the percentages of ESL/FARM/minority students when you bring up PG County. PG County has a history of being a badly run school district (or, at least that is its reputation) and many sections of PG County have higher crime rates than just about anything you will find in Fairfax County. Also, there are differences between urban, African American poverty, and ESL immigrant poverty. You have portions of PG County that are almost entirely economically depressed - I don't think you will encounter similar large sections of poverty in Fairfax County. Yes, there is poverty, but it is often right next to considerable wealth.
Is it a "safer" bet to pick Fairfax County schools over PG schools? Yes, and I don't think there is anyone who will disagree with that. Is it a "safer" bet to pick an elementary school in Fairfax County that has only 5% ESL/FARM students over an elementary school that has 30% ESL/FARM students? Maybe, but I really don't think the decision there is nearly as clear cut. The administration and teachers at that elementary school with 30% FARM students may be way more committed than the ones at the 5% school. Students with high potential may stand out more at the 30% school and receive attention from the teachers that they would not at the 5% school because there they are simply one of the mass of students with high potential. Sure, the school with the higher percentage of ESL/FARM students will have to devote more resources to those students than the lower percentage school, but that doesn't mean there are no resources left over for the higher performing students.
There are a lot of factors to be considered - simply looking at two different schools and saying I better pick the one with the lower percentage of ESL/FARM/minority shows a relatively small degree of critical thought in my opinion.
There's a big difference between "turning your nose up at Fairfax or South Lakes HS" and "turning your nose up at an elementary that's 70-80% higher-risk students" -- and yes there are a few of those in Northern Virginia.
There's a few elementaries in Northern VA with FARMS/ESOL/at-risk numbers comparable to those you might usually associate with Prince George's.
Airjay75 is right in that upper-middle class students might stand out at a lower-reputation elementary, but there's also the risk that they might end up having to help their classmates catch up (or be bored as the teacher repeats something for the 3rd time) and not learn as much as they might in a higher-reputation elementary. Luck of the draw + competence of administration here. Some schools only focus on the exceptional kids (athletes + academically) and ignore the middle-flyers.
(FWIW, I wouldn't be troubled by 30% FARMS without reports of other issues. I'd look and see how the not-at-risk students are doing, of course.)
Of course a lot of things are the luck of the draw -- a great teacher might retire to be replaced by an incompetent one, a principal might move on, there might be a clique of alpha moms that make things miserable one year whereas the previous year was just fine, etc. Likewise -- some Spanish speaking kids/parents are eager to assimilate/make friends with the Anglos, others "stick to their own" and might even bully Anglo kids in Spanish.
There's a big difference between "turning your nose up at Fairfax or South Lakes HS" and "turning your nose up at an elementary that's 70-80% higher-risk students" -- and yes there are a few of those in Northern Virginia.
Agreed. There's a big difference between diversity, and an environment where the ESL children outnumber your non-ESL kid. That could potentially have a detrimental effect on your child's education, and you can't begrudge a parent for caring about that. I do think people around here split hairs a little too much about schools though. Our area has overall exceptional schools and like you said there are only a couple elementary schools that could warrant concern.
I am a firm believer that a good education starts with the parents/at home. If the parents are involved and push their child's education, the child will do well and excel no matter what school that child goes to. Parents need to work with the teacher to ensure a good education. They can't just toss their kids in school and say, "well, the school has good test scores so Johnny is going to do well."
I base this on personal experience as well as observations. Most of the people I personally know who are successful in life didn't go to the best elementary school, best high school, or best college (if they even went to college). Heck, one of the most sucessful people I know is a friend of mine (from high school). She was a refugee, only spoke Farsi when I met her... growing up with her was a learning experience for both of us. Today she's an environmental engineering consultant and has a house in McLean. What drove her was her own character and her parents who stressed school and education. And the high school we went to was ranked low in our state.
Of course, with Northern Virginia and all it's resources, even the "worst" schools would have ranked as some of the best in other areas. It's all relative.
I'm not replying specifically to you, but to all those who think this way. Do you have your own kids going to those schools that are like those described? It seems to me that if you don't, it's just a theory. We can all tell a "friend's " story. I'm asking this, not because I disagree with you, because I don't. However, when considering moving to the Lee HS area of Springfield, the more I checked, the less I liked it. I could not sacrifice my kids on an unproven theory that even in the worst schools they would be fine. The same reason we left PG County a few years ago. I didn't mind living there, but I had to realize that my kids are not me.
I'm not replying specifically to you, but to all those who think this way. Do you have your own kids going to those schools that are like those described? It seems to me that if you don't, it's just a theory. We can all tell a "friend's " story. I'm asking this, not because I disagree with you, because I don't. However, when considering moving to the Lee HS area of Springfield, the more I checked, the less I liked it. I could not sacrifice my kids on an unproven theory that even in the worst schools they would be fine. The same reason we left PG County a few years ago. I didn't mind living there, but I had to realize that my kids are not me.
I live in Springfield and eventually my daughter will go to Lee High School. The kids in my neighborhood go to Lee as well and they seem like fine kids to me. Most go to college (or at least all the ones I know personally that have graduated are going to college). Lee High School ranks a lot higher than the high school I went to... and, like I said, people from my high school did just fine in life--sure some did poorly, but good students are good students. It comes from the heart and their upbringing/parenting. I am of the opinion that the schools in Fairfax are so overwhelming good (compared to the national average) that it really boils down to parental involvement/investment with the individual child that makes the difference.
It comes from the heart and their upbringing/parenting. I am of the opinion that the schools in Fairfax are so overwhelming good (compared to the national average) that it really boils down to parental involvement/investment with the individual child that makes the difference.
I had involved parents, shoot my Mom was a teacher, but I have to say based on MY experience, it's still a crapshoot. I had two siblings that went to the same schools I did and one did really well, the other so-so. I, however, was much more influenced by the peers I attended school with. Let me just say that the majority of my peers did not have good parental involvement/investment in their kids.
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