John Geer case (Springfield, Fairfax: 2013, attorneys, townhouse)

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by IgnorantMan

Because in America, police view anyone who are not police as guilty and deserving of heavy-handed "justice". That's why they tackle elderly people, taze diabetics and shoot people like John Greer, all while screaming "quit resisting"!

A few bad apples do that; the vast majority do not.

[Old Guard]

Originally Posted by r small

From what I have read Geer had a holstered weapon lying on the floor not far from where he was standing. So I don't think it would have been unreasonable for the officers to have their weapons drawn just in case Geer tried to go for his. But in any event it is clear that at the time he was shot Geer was not going for his weapon. Torres claimed Geer dropped his arms. All three of the other officers dispute that.

Could they not all be right. Could they not all believe they saw what they saw? The human mind is flawed, humans are flawed. I find it hard to second guess the police every time they make a mistake because I was not there. They would not have been there if this guy was acting responsibly.

I think we are spending a lot of time empowering people to act badly. The man was involved in a domestic dispute, known to be one of the most dangerous calls and has a gun...in a TOWNHOUSE community. If he were a mile away from another house let him sit. But he could hurt a lot of INNOCENT people in a short amount of time.

Why was this guy even carrying a gun? Was he afraid his spouse might try to defend herself?

As for the officer if he was convicted of domestic violence he should not be carrying a weapon IIRC.

[r small]

Torres claims to this day that he thought the shooting was justified. The other officers and several eye-witnesses thought otherwise. I'm content to let the legal system sort it out. But the legal system can't work if the Fairfax PD won't cooperate with the investigation. Now that this case has been blown wide open we'll see what happens.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by Old Guard

Could they not all be right. Could they not all believe they saw what they saw? The human mind is flawed, humans are flawed. I find it hard to second guess the police every time they make a mistake because I was not there. They would not have been there if this guy was acting responsibly..

FOUR police officers (3 officers and 1 lieutenant) contested Torres' account. It's not as if they all agree with his version, and the public has seen fit to contest it.

Originally Posted by Old Guard

I think we are spending a lot of time empowering people to act badly. The man was involved in a domestic dispute, known to be one of the most dangerous calls and has a gun...in a TOWNHOUSE community. If he were a mile away from another house let him sit. But he could hurt a lot of INNOCENT people in a short amount of time.

Why was this guy even carrying a gun? Was he afraid his spouse might try to defend herself?

There's this thing called the Second Amendment. Owning/carrying a gun (in VA openly or concealed with a CCW permit) is not a crime. Also, for the distance between homes to make any difference in terms of a stray bullet, they'd have to be miles apart. By that standard, no one in any suburb should ever own a gun--an assertion many would object to. The problem here was the person behind the gun (Torres)--not the gun itself. Especially not the gun owned by the victim.

Now Geer did make a couple of dumb comments and did err in not just coming out of the house when asked--but that misjudgment pales in comparison to Torres' lethal overreaction.

[Old Guard]

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

FOUR police officers (3 officers and 1 lieutenant) contested Torres' account. It's not as if they all agree and the public has seen fit to contest it.

That does not answer my question. Could not all people witnessing an act perceive it differently and all believe they are telling the truth?

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

There's this thing called the Second Amendment. Owning/carrying a gun (in VA openly or concealed with a CCW permit) is not a crime.

I am not going to get into a gun debate. Even though it is legal it does raise the stakes in domestic incidents. It may not have been his best accessory to carry to beat up his girlfriend.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

Also, for the distance between homes to make any difference in terms of a stray bullet, they'd have to be miles apart.

Well this is clearly untrue. A mile could make a difference considering terrain and obstacles such as trees and other buildings. A mile would not be completely safe but it could be much safer than 50 yards.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

By that standard, no one in any suburb should ever own a gun--an assertion many would object to. The problem here was the person behind the gun (Torres)--not the gun itself.

Now Geer did make a couple of dumb comments and did err in not just coming out of the house when asked--but that crime pales in comparison to Torres' overreaction.

There is an old pro gun saying. "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". I guess Tores will have a chance to test this out.

[r small]

Originally Posted by Old Guard

That does not answer my question. Could not all people witnessing an act perceive it differently and all believe they are telling the truth?

I am not going to get into a gun debate. Even though it is legal it does raise the stakes in domestic incidents. It may not have been his best accessory to carry to beat up his girlfriend.

Well this is clearly untrue. A mile could make a difference considering terrain and obstacles such as trees and other buildings. A mile would not be completely safe but it could be much safer than 50 yards.

There is an old pro gun saying. "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". I guess Tores will have a chance to test this out.

Yep.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by Old Guard

That does not answer my question. Could not all people witnessing an act perceive it differently and all believe they are telling the truth?

That's not the scenario here. Here you have four different people reporting the same thing--and one outlier who, by the way, has everything to lose by going with the majority's version.

Originally Posted by Old Guard

I am not going to get into a gun debate. Even though it is legal it does raise the stakes in domestic incidents. It may not have been his best accessory to carry to beat up his girlfriend.

First of all, he didn't beat up his girlfriend. She had called the police because he'd put her belongings outside. Domestic disturbance does not always mean the man was beating the woman.

You started a gun debate by stating that no one who lives in a townhouse should own a gun. Cars kill far more people than guns. Should no one in a townhouse own a car?

Originally Posted by Old Guard

Well this is clearly untrue. A mile could make a difference considering terrain and obstacles such as trees and other buildings. A mile would not be completely safe but it could be much safer than 50 yards.

I'm no ballistics expert, but I do know that a bullet has to travel for a long way before its velocity is so reduced that it's no longer a threat to anyone. You said no one in a townhouse should have a gun, because townhouses are so close together that an accidental shot fired would endanger someone nearby. Most houses in NoVA are only marginally farther apart than townhouses. (I'm pretty sure the effect of a bullet hitting someone from 30 feet is not measurably gentler on the person shot than the bullet fired from 10 feet.) Even in neighborhoods with huge lots and lots of trees, there are cars on nearby roads, so if you're so worried about errant bullets, townhouses are not at some special, increased risk.

Originally Posted by Old Guard

There is an old pro gun saying. "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". I guess Tores will have a chance to test this out.

I would love to be one of the 12. Torres is a stain on law enforcement--a noble profession that I think is largely occupied by selfless, brave people who try very hard to do the right thing. His impulsiveness/anger/misjudgment killed an innocent man. Again, Geer seemed to have a lot of problems and definitely did some unwise things in this situation--but he wasn't threatening any police officers, and thus his killing wasn't justified.

[Old Guard]

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

That's not the scenario here. Here you have four different people reporting the same thing--and one outlier who, by the way, has everything to lose by going with the majority's version.

Again that is not what I asked. You love the semantics when they favor you. Could it not be possible for all the people to see the same event and draw different conclusions? Is the dress black and blue?

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

You started a gun debate by stating that no one who lives in a townhouse should own a gun.

LOL. I never said that.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

Cars kill far more people than guns. Should no one in a townhouse own a car?

They should certainly not carry a car to beat up their girlfriend!

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

I'm no ballistics expert, but I do know that a bullet has to travel for a long way before its velocity is so reduce that it's no longer a threat to anyone. You said no one in a townhouse should have a gun, because townhouses are so close together that an accidental shot fired would endanger someone nearby.

Did I say that or did I say it escalated the danger. Let us look at what you DID say Captain Semantics:

Also, for the distance between homes to make any difference in terms of

a stray bullet, they'd have to be miles apart.

Actually it really depends on the gun and the round. A lot of rounds would not be viable at MILES. But you are not even saying a mile....you are saying MILES to make ANY difference. Just the maths a 2 mile diameter increase your chances. There is a lot of space in a 2 mile diameter area and people maintain their size.

Plus was this guy carrying a .308 rifle or a pistol? I assumed a pistol.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

Most houses in NoVA are only marginally farther apart than townhouses. Even in neighborhoods with huge lots and lots of trees, there are cars on nearby roads, so if you're so worried about errant bullets, townhouses are not at some special, increased risk.

But I did not say houses in Northern VA did I Captain Semantics? You are trying to make straw man arguments. Also even you want to try to make an argument between home vs townhome I would say there is more population density in the town home areas which could increase the danger though optimally nobody should commit domestic abuse or shoot a gun in anger or stupidity.

Originally Posted by Carlingtonian

I would love to be one of the 12. Torres is a stain on law enforcement. He killed an innocent man--who, by the way, had NOT been beating his wife, as you stated earlier. (She had called the police because he'd put her belongings outside.) Again, Geer seemed to have a lot of problems and definitely did some unwise things in this situation--but he wasn't threatening any police officers, and thus his killing wasn't justified.

He sounds like a peach.

[Carlingtonian]

Originally Posted by Old Guard

Again that is not what I asked. You love the semantics when they favor you. Could it not be possible for all the people to see the same event and draw different conclusions? Is the dress black and blue?

Yes, different observers theoretically could report an event differently--but that isn't what happened here, so I'm not sure why you're fixating on that. Four people saw the same thing.

[kieplangdu]

Originally Posted by Old Guard

Again that is not what I asked. You love the semantics when they favor you. Could it not be possible for all the people to see the same event and draw different conclusions? Is the dress black and blue?

No, because there are not 4 versions there are 2 versions. Your argument is based on ridiculous extrapolation. The fact is there are 2 versions of the event and 1 from Torres while the other were from 3 officers and 2 eye witness.