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I believe it is different when your child is in elementary school versus middle or high school and whether you attend private or public school. I can only speak to the public schools.
Elementary school, the teacher has one class and usually they are with these same kids all day thus you can build a relationship with these kids. You get to know them very well and you get to know the parents too. Parents volunteers are plentiful in elementary schools
Middle school -- not so much. If you are on a block schedule, the teacher has about 180 -190 students that you have to teach/grade etc. There is less time to build relationships. I rarely see the parents and sometimes you can't even get them on the telephone to talk about their child's progress. By the time they hit middle school, the kids know who is on the fast track versus who isn't. All they have to do is compare the classes they are assigned (advance math versus regular math etc.) And you hardly ever see a parent volunteer at this level except for field trips.
From discussion with other parents with kids in high school, I am pretty confident in saying that the school within the school is the norm at all our county high schools. You are pretty much in the top echelon of the school if you take AP or IB classes. These kids want to be among other students who enjoy learning and these kids are taking the AP/IB classes. These are the kids with the highest GPAs and ranking. They are also the ones getting into UVA and W&M. Unfortunately, this also causes the "school within the school".
Korean or Vietnamese or Indian or Japanese? Each group has a different economic class in this area.
None of you seem to be interested in hearing that "gifted programs" are false programs simply created for my previously stated reasons. Again, I believe a tutor working one on one with the "gifted kid" once a week is better than isolating the rich kids in one part of the school.
I'm guessing you all feel threatened that if gifted programs are eliminated from FFX County, your kids will be mixed into the general populations of your neighborhood school. Thus your kids will be sitting at lunch with the ESL/Free lunch kid.
I heard a report on Channel 9 about a new McMansion neighborhood in FFX County (don't remember where) where the kids school boundaries (white kids, houses were half a mil plus) were suddenly changed and the parents were up in arms over the fact that their kids were now going to be bused 1/2 hour away to a school populated with "mostly free lunch kids".
If I was looking to move in this area and solely relied on what was written in these forums, I would think DC is a very racist place.
BTW, "My "Gifted Kid" has been teased, bullied, and tormented for her "uniqueness" for the last two school years. " is not a valid reason for sending your kid to a "gifted program" OrangeFish. What she needs is a parent who can teach her ways of dealing with bullies in her life, because those bullies will be there when she is an adult too.
Yes, you are correct, many parents believe that peer groups matter. Why? Because they do. Many FCPS parents want their kids in Gifted centers because their children will be surrounded by children who want to learn, often love to learn. They respect other children with esoteric interests, like the nerdy 4th grader who is obsessed with Roman Numerals or World War I or Indonesia. Their competitive juices spur each other on to higher levels in the Geography Bee and Chess and Math Olympiad. If you don't want your child bullied because she's smart, why wouldn't you put her in a program where she won't have to deal with that? A program where her/his esoteric interests will be respected and encouraged? Why would you leave any child in a hostile environment where her interests will be shut down and learning discouraged?
As a professional, married to a professional, I can say we have never been bullied because of our intelligence, our degrees, or our abilities. That doesn't happen in the grown up world like it does in the world of children. As children some of us were bullied, because there was no place for gifted children to interact with other gifted children. Children have no way to segregate themselves from the criminal/bully types like we do as adults. They have parents who are supposed to do that for them, protect them from the threatening people in society, including threatening children.
THE BEST thing about GT centers is that gifted kids have a peer group where they can flourish, not a class where they are laughed at and bullied. I can't imagine ANY parent who would force their child to deal with abuse and ridicule in their classroom when there was an alternative. What a horrible message to give to a child. It's horrifying to think how that will stunt their emotional and intellectual growth.
"BTW, "My "Gifted Kid" has been teased, bullied, and tormented for her "uniqueness" for the last two school years. " is not a valid reason for sending your kid to a "gifted program" OrangeFish."
Oh, yeah it is. Unless you have a child like this, you haven't a clue how a GT Center can almost literally be a lifesaver. Though it is true that there are many problems with the the GT concept, and even more problems with its execution, the fact remains that there are some kids who simply cannot have their educational needs met in a regular classroom setting. When they are in high school and college, they will have options for greater intellectual challenges, and when they are adults, they can choose a profession (medicine, law, academics, research etc.) that fits their gifts. But when they are 8 or 10 years old, they are at the mercy of the classroom teacher and the other kids, many of whom will behave like the immature children they are when confronted with a classmate who is learning at such an advanced level.
You are SO right. The best thing about the GT center for my first kid was that he finally had peers. The first week he said "I love it here, no one thinks I'm weird because everyone has weird interests". He loved learning and loved learning from the other kids. They loved learning from him. He loved it that he could advance in math and read books at a higher level and learn about Roman and Greek history.
DS now a very successful engineer, with many of the same friends from the GT centers and TJ. He went to the wedding of one of them this weekend, a PhD in Math. One of those ''weird'' kids for whom GT centers and TJ was a God send.
Who wouldn't put their child in the best possible circumstances for their emotional and intellectual development? Why would any parent make their child suffer in a class where they could soar intellectually and avoid emotional abuse?
Since you apparently want "reasons":
1. Her WISV-IV GAI = 154.
2. She's 2e.
3. Her base school LL4 would have had 3 GTC-eligible kids.
4. We did a year of therapy with a CSW to work through the bully issues.
5. She's 8. She's a kid. She's hardly akin to a high school student.
Are you saying she is handicapped? That her uniqueness should be ADA covered? Is she blind? Autistic? BiPolar?
If you believe that "gifted kids" are "handicapped" in some manner, then by all means, separate them from the general population, get a handicapped plate for your car!
But if they are just smarter kids who are socially awkward, then I believe all they need is one on one tutoring and then put in the general population. Again, it is the parents responsibility to work through the bully issues, not the School (to a degree) and definitely not the State.
There is an interesting article in Washingtonian Magazine (which I normally don't like but I digress) that compared TJ and Blaine (?), the MontCo equivalent. At the MontCo school, the "gifted kids" were put in their own classes four hours a day, then back into the general population for the rest of the day. I'm not sure what I think of that but its a marked improvement from isolating the smart kids from the average kids completely.
And to reiterate, I was put in Gifted Program though elementary/ middle schools. Please refer to my previous posts for that. I also have a toddler that is illustrating "Classic signs" of "giftedness" but I find it those signs a bunch of hogwash.
As a professional, married to a professional, I can say we have never been bullied because of our intelligence, our degrees, or our abilities. That doesn't happen in the grown up world like it does in the world of children. As children some of us were bullied, because there was no place for gifted children to interact with other gifted children. Children have no way to segregate themselves from the criminal/bully types like we do as adults. They have parents who are supposed to do that for them, protect them from the threatening people in society, including threatening children.
.
My Brother and both Brothers in Law were in "Gifted Programs". They are not professionals- One is in Afghanistan. I'm betting they run into a lot of bullies, with guns as they are all military.
My point is, there is no accountability as to how successful these programs are (which may also explain why there there is about 50% of "gifted, non white/affluent kids" who never are considered for such programs). I'd like to know out of all the kids who "Graduated" "Gifted Programs" in the past 40 years, how many became white collar/ master degreed plus adults? My Father was never in a "Gifted Program", I know for a fact he got in lots of fist-fights over his school years and he's a successful engineer.
As for "the tragedy of exposing my children to bullies *faint*", I bring my son to the Dentist, it hurts and it scares him. He hates it but I do it because its best for him. Same with shots from the Doctor. I believe kids need to be exposed to others who are different, and yes, others who don't like him. Again, it is my responsibility as a parent to teach him how to handle those painful situations, as it is my responsibility to teach him that pain at the Doctor and the Dentist is a necessary fact of life.
I think I've covered every point I can think of. This has been a great debate!
To finish -Gifted Programs--BOOO!
Last edited by leighland; 10-05-2009 at 02:33 PM..
Reason: forgot one quick thing
As parents, we are the primary advocates for our children. If a parent feels that the GT centers is where their child belongs then that is their choice. If your child is "gifted" and you choose not to participate in the GT centers, then that is your choice.
Although we don't have GT centers, we have a "gifted" program that only takes the student out of their classroom about 1 1/2 hours per week. The remaining time they spend with their classmates (although they have the higher level math and english classes). Let me tell you, if my child could be in the "gifted" program full time -- he would glady go. He was with classmates who did not enjoy learning and could not learn (yes, they had special education students in his regular class - inclusion!). He didn't have an issue with bullying but it was a waste of his time as he finished his work and waited for an HOUR for the rest of the class to finish. He couldn't do anything but SIT there and wait as his teacher told him "it would hurt the other students feelings if you worked on something else". He was stuck as there was no other class he could transfer to as ALL his classes (other than the math & english) had the same student mix. It was an extremely frustrating year and we were so happy when he moved onto high school.
He LOVES TJ. He didn't know if he wanted to go due to his long commute but now, he says he would only leave if they kicked him out! There is nothing like it to be among peers who enjoy the learning process and to feel challenged.
I think it's very, very sad that anyone would think bullying is a parents' issue to deal with, rather than the schools. There are adult posters here who can barely take a criticism by strangers in an internet conversation that they entered into voluntarily, let alone children who would have to face whoever is bothering them with no respite every day.
Way back when I was in high school, there was no differentiation in terms of classes, but the National Honor Society Members had their own homeroom. This was done for logistical purposes -- the types of kids in honor society were so busy that it would have been hard to get us all together regularly for meetings -- but it was very refreshing to start the day with a group of students who genuinely cared about academics and grades.
He couldn't do anything but SIT there and wait as his teacher told him "it would hurt the other students feelings if you worked on something else". He was stuck as there was no other class he could transfer to as ALL his classes (other than the math & english) had the same student mix. It was an extremely frustrating year and we were so happy when he moved onto high school.
Wow. That's a rough way to go through middle school. I'm glad he's finally found a "home"!
Wanna bet they will have no clue what that means? Yet, there are so many 2e kids in the school system.
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