Best city in Ohio? (Columbus, Cleveland: suburbs, land, education)

[Townes Van Zandt]

Originally Posted by ram2

News flash - the Columbus Blue Jackets suck.

Btw, doesn't Columbus' only other "pro" sports franchise, the "crew" have some of the worst attendance numbers in the MLS?

The Browns sell out no matter how bad they suck, the Cavs have the second best attendance in the league even though the had one of the worst records, and the first place Indians just sold out twice in the last series against the Yankees.

[czb2004]

So basically what I'm getting from this is Cleveland is still the best city, but Columbus is looking like it could eclipse Cleveland in 20-30 years.

[Cbus76]

Originally Posted by ksu sucks

Btw, doesn't Columbus' only other "pro" sports franchise, the "crew" have some of the worst attendance numbers in the MLS?

The Browns sell out no matter how bad they suck, the Cavs have the second best attendance in the league even though the had one of the worst records, and the first place Indians just sold out twice in the last series against the Yankees.

The Browns have tremendous support whether they are good or bad, but don't kid yourself about the Cavs or Indians. The Cavs had the second best attendance last season becuase in order to get 2010 playoff tickets, people had to lock-in 2010-2011 season tickets. The Cavs' attendance will fall off a cliff once the NBA starts back up, whether this year or next. As for the Indians, hopefully they continue their winning ways, but they're currently 26th in attendance, hardly fantastic. The Blue Jackets have mediocre attendance too. Like the Indians and Cavs, it depends on how well they are playing.

In reading through your posts on the City-Data forums you seem to have a lot of anger toward Columbus - it looks to me like insecurity. Blast Columbus all you want, but take a look at the population numbers for Fraklin County versus Cuyahoga County and the Columbus MSA and CSA versus Cleveland's MSA and CSA and you tell me where the momentum is. And yes, Columbus does have a lot of suburban growth, similar to what you would have seen in Parma, Fairview Park and other Cleveland suburbs back in the 50's and 60's. Metro Columbus is growing quickly now, and Cleveland back then, that's the reality of things. Yes, Columbus does not have the number of urban neighborhoods that Cleveland does (Cleveland was a major city much before Columbus), but the Short North, German Village, the OSU area, Clintonville, Westgate and Clintonville are all highly livable urban areas.

[Townes Van Zandt]

Originally Posted by Cbus76

The Browns have tremendous support whether they are good or bad, but don't kid yourself about the Cavs or Indians. The Cavs had the second best attendance last season becuase in order to get 2010 playoff tickets, people had to lock-in 2010-2011 season tickets. The Cavs' attendance will fall off a cliff once the NBA starts back up, whether this year or next. As for the Indians, hopefully they continue their winning ways, but they're currently 26th in attendance, hardly fantastic. The Blue Jackets have mediocre attendance too. Like the Indians and Cavs, it depends on how well they are playing.

Most importantly, I don't buy the Forbes doctrine that professional sports success has a direct effect on how "good" a city is. Perhaps a better way to look at this would be the number of pro teams in a city.

Cleveland: All of the big 3(NFL, MLB, NBA)
Columbus: None of the big three(MLS, NHL, and Ohio State)

Originally Posted by Cbus76

In reading through your posts on the City-Data forums you seem to have a lot of anger toward Columbus - it looks to me like insecurity.

That's interesting, because I could have sworn that I made my posts private. Are you judging me by the two posts I made in this thread?

I have nothing against Columbus. In fact, I was merely responding with facts to a poster who felt the need to unnecessarily degrade Cleveland for whatever reason.

So far, no one has disputed those facts, I've merely been personally attacked and accused of "blasting" Columbus. Sorry, next time I will just sit by idly as someone spews garbage about my city.

Facts be damned.

By the way, I respect Columbus and I totally agree that it has the momentum right now. And it's perfectly fine if some of you want to promote this, just leave Cleveland out of it.

Originally Posted by Cbus76

Yes, Columbus does not have the number of urban neighborhoods that Cleveland does (Cleveland was a major city much before Columbus), but the Short North, German Village, the OSU area, Clintonville, Westgate and Clintonville are all highly livable urban areas.

FYI, you've just admitted something that has been denied multiple times on these forums. Thanks for being honest. I don't think that we're in disagreement, it's just that some of your fellow Columbusites(perhaps college kids?) tend to say some incredible things.

[Townes Van Zandt]

Originally Posted by czb2004

So basically what I'm getting from this is Cleveland is still the best city, but Columbus is looking like it could eclipse Cleveland in 20-30 years.

It depends what you mean by "eclipse".

In terms of population, Columbus has already passed up Cleveland. I think that's what many Cbus fans get all riled up about.

[czb2004]

I mean it will be the "big city" in Ohio. I think Cleveland still has the status of being thought of as the big city in Ohio even though it is technically smaller in city proper population, but as Columbus continues to grow it will eventually feel like more of a big city than Cleveland.

[Cbus76]

Originally Posted by czb2004

I mean it will be the "big city" in Ohio. I think Cleveland still has the status of being thought of as the big city in Ohio even though it is technically smaller in city proper population, but as Columbus continues to grow it will eventually feel like more of a big city than Cleveland.

Maybe way down the road. Even though Columbus' metro population may one day surpass Cleveland's, Cleveland may still "feel" like more of a big city because it's core is more dense. I'm impressed with Columbus' infill projects in downtown (replacing surface lots with apartments and condos), but it still doesn't match up with Cleveland's downtown area where there are less gaps in the streetscape and narrower streets. Throw in Cleveland's Rapid and a greater number of dense and older neighborhoods, and I think Cleveland will still look like more of a big city. I think Columbus' development will mirror what you see in places like Indianapolis or Charlotte where there are some good downtown infill projects, but lots of large suburban mid-rise office complexes and planned communities (New Albany and Dublin come to mind).

[abr7rmj]

Cleveland/Cincinnati > Columbus

Columbus > Dayton/Akron/Toledo

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by ksu sucks

Btw, doesn't Columbus' only other "pro" sports franchise, the "crew" have some of the worst attendance numbers in the MLS?

The Browns sell out no matter how bad they suck, the Cavs have the second best attendance in the league even though the had one of the worst records, and the first place Indians just sold out twice in the last series against the Yankees.

Soccer is still not that popular in the US, but's it's growing. And whatever the attendance numbers are, at least the Crew is one of the top teams in the nation and have recently won a championship. I wonder, however, if some of the attendance numbers has to do with stadium presence. Columbus had the first MLS stadium in the country, but it is now one of the most-outdated and smallest. There has been talk for a few years now that a new stadium is needed. Anyway, I'm not going to sit here and say that all the teams in Columbus represent the most popular sports or that they are always winning, but most of are teams are not embarrassingly bad like Ohio's pro football and baseball usually are. The Jackets... yeah they've sucked.

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by Cbus76

Maybe way down the road. Even though Columbus' metro population may one day surpass Cleveland's, Cleveland may still "feel" like more of a big city because it's core is more dense. I'm impressed with Columbus' infill projects in downtown (replacing surface lots with apartments and condos), but it still doesn't match up with Cleveland's downtown area where there are less gaps in the streetscape and narrower streets. Throw in Cleveland's Rapid and a greater number of dense and older neighborhoods, and I think Cleveland will still look like more of a big city. I think Columbus' development will mirror what you see in places like Indianapolis or Charlotte where there are some good downtown infill projects, but lots of large suburban mid-rise office complexes and planned communities (New Albany and Dublin come to mind).

I think the overall density has to do with age. Cleveland peaked as a major city decades before Columbus. Columbus was long in far 3rd place in population and presence for most of it's life, and I think, for many people especially in Ohio's older major cities, it's still looked at like that. But the reality is that it really is the lone true bright spot in Ohio's urban scene right now. And like I said, the population is growing to the point where it has reached that edge between medium and major city. The development going on only feeds into more growth.
I disagree fully that Columbus is like Indy or Charlotte in terms of urban density. Columbus is already well ahead of both of them. Neither city has districts even close to Columbus' densist. And New Albany and Dublin are far suburbs, they are not part of the urban core. Every city in the US has places like that, including Cincy and Cleveland.