Anyone move to the Youngstown/Warren/Boardman metro???? (Austintown, Niles: appointed, credit)

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by 000000

youngstown doesn't even have 100,000 people; nor does it have many other things big cities like atlanta and minneapolis have that might bring those thousands of people back.

But Youngstown has many things that a lot of other cities its size do not have: a world class museum, a university, Stambaugh Auditorium, the DeYor Center, Mill Creek Park, etc.

My question is, when speaking of crime, why is it such a issue here, but seems to be overlooked in other places where it's just as much of a problem? Afterall, as you point out, crime plays such a large role in Youngstown's bad image, but it's not really that different from many other cities across the U.S. (I'm not suggesting that we ignore the crime problem)

there are no jobs here, no likelihood of jobs coming in,

This could also be said of a large--and ever-increasing--portion of the U.S. these days.

small town corrupt local governments, the likelihood of crime in certain areas,

Again, this is not unusual for much of the U.S. and even the world.

very little recreation (which is getting better, but is nowhere near enough),

I guess it depends on what your interests are, and how much you need to be entertained. I don't need that much recreation. (afterall, I'm spending a portion of my Friday night replying to you, and I consider that recreation. ) But, if the weather were more cooperative, I'd spend tomorrow afternoon at the artist's open-house at the old Ward Bakery building. (22-23rd and 29th from noon to 5) After that, I might have gone downtown to spend the rest of the evening at one of the "bars." (I'll address that later.)

and are not always open to outsiders,

I can't say I've experienced this personally, but I've read this sort of sentiment on the vindy boards toward Phill Kidd recently. I've been welcomed pretty warmly by my neighbors.

the housing is cheap, though.

I was watching "My House is Worth What" on HGTV this evening, and one of the houses was valued at 20X (TWENTY!!!) that of a similar house in this area. (a two-bedroom, turn-of-the-century bungalow in California)

if they did it right the first time...

A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. At least they patched some of them in the first place, and then came back.

so unless more people actually get involved with things like the garden club then all of the raised awareness is only going to be reaching themselves.

This occurred to me before, and may not apply directly to this quote. I think you and I have a fundamentally different view of what the Youngstown blogs are about. You seem to believe they think they are the only thing happening in Youngstown, that they believe they are going to be the salvation of Youngstown, and, without them, they city will continue its decline into despair. Maybe this is not what you think of them, but it's the impression I get from your posts here. To me they are a source of news for the area; they tell me what good things are happening. Some of them do propose ideas. And, sometimes they will just point out the great things we already have that are often overlooked. The Youngstown blogs are just one part of a greater movement to make Youngstown a better place.

i would not count on people leaving their houses, though, since you can still feel the apathy. you can feel the apathy because the causes of this mess are still not being dealt with.

You should attend an Idora neighborhood meeting, then. Some would consider that neighborhood among the worst in the city. But, there are probably 100 or so people who have left their houses and joined together to make their neighborhood better. The Garden District neighborhood group started with a couple people sitting on a front porch, and had grown to over 60 people. (we've been having some behind the scenes trouble--differences of opinion among the leadership--so our numbers have suffered)

well, there are two things that have to be mentioned about race in regards to this.
first, the youngstown blogosphere's lack of diversity speaks to a clique which is not interacting with a huge part of the city that they are trying to change.

I can say with a fair amount of certainty that they would love to have greater diversity in their numbers. How would you suggest they achieve that?

you can't actually do anything for the future if what you do does not deal with the situation as it has been made by the past. sure, there are negative attitudes in youngstown, but negative attitudes only came after everything else. positive attitudes add no new money to the economy.

Positive attitudes don't keep money out of the economy. The negative attitudes help keep people (and their money) away.

To me, it sounds like you think the blogs are useless because they aren't putting all their efforts into creating jobs.

the well-educated people will not stay if they have no jobs to go to- of which there are so very few...

yet, all of this will change if only we have positive attitudes?

My company had to hire a recruitment agency to find someone qualified to fill the position that I was eventually hired for. I wouldn't have bothered to look for a job in Youngstown at the time--they had to find me and convince me to come in for an interview.

More recently however, we've had more local interns. Of the 4 local college grads we've hired, only one of them decided to stay in the area. The others decided to live somewhere else either right after graduation, or after working at our office for a couple years. We have another intern who is still in college right now. She will be coming back over Christmas break. I think she will also have a job waiting, if she decides to stay after graduation.

if you look downtown, what moved in after the chevy centre? bars. of all of the potential businesses that were thought possible with the chevy centre? bars. not even restaurants (although tomasino's did go late night). once those expensive apartments are built, where will these lawyers and bankers be within walking distance of?

Yes, Core was (and the establishment that has taken its place is) an upscale "bar." Yes, Imbibe is a martini bar. Barleys is also a bar. Skeeters is a bar. But Cafe Cimmento is not a bar. Rosetta Stone is not a bar. Overture is not a bar. Maria's Downtown Cafe (which, I think, will be in the Realty building when construction is completed) does not sound like a bar. The Bean Counter was not a bar. The Old Precinct was not a bar.

if people stopped conversing with you simply because they disagree with you, than you are only left with conjecture as to why they feel so strongly about their position in their absence.

Fair enough. But from the limited interaction I've had with those in question, and from what I know about them, I think your assesment that I've quoted below is "off-base."

each blogger has a different latent motivation for wanting youngstown to become gentrified. some have bought property in bad parts of town and need to turn it over for profit in their lifetimes. some are artists that have tried to make it in bigger cities, but were not able to do so. some have micro-businesses they are trying to get off the ground. others just love to type, and if the blog were not about youngstown, it would be about themselves.

i do admit that i do respect you, jr c, then i do of others within the movement of sorts. you are willing to discuss things with someone who does not agree with you without telling me that "i do not understand" (which is the concession of an arguement in my eyes).

Thanks.

It becomes tiring to endlessly fight for one's city. It also becomes easier to just dismiss those who have a differing viewpoint--with the understanding that the argument is likely to be pointless. So, one starts to choose their battles carefully, and just dismiss the others with "you don't understand."

you also may be seeing that i really wish youngstown would get better.

I think most people would like to see Youngstown get better. But many--especially those who have distanced themselves from the city--don't see that this change is starting to happen.

our differences mainly are that i have seen positive attitudes achieve nothing in 20 years.

Maybe I'm naive, but I think we're entering a "perfect storm" of cooperation from city hall, and renewed enthusiasm from many of its citizens. All of which, I think is inspired by the 2010 plan. (and blogs) I think these factors, present at the same time, will make it possible for significant positive changes to be made in the city.

I am worried that our troubled economy will hinder this change, though. But, I don't think Youngstown will be alone in its suffering.

why did you choose to move to youngstown? i always have to ask people who choose to move in.

I partly answered this question in this post. But, I was also the first person to respond to this thread.

If you're asking why I moved from Austintown to a neighborhood in the city-proper, there were a couple reasons.

1. Since I was a kid, I always wanted to live in an old house. And, I was amazed by Mill Creek Park whenever I'd be taken though by a co-worker. So, I fell in love with the old neighborhoods that were close to the park.

2. I wanted a more walkable neighborhood. Where I lived in Austintown, it took at least a half-hour to get anywhere. Now I can walk to the grocery store in about 10 minutes.

3. Lastly, I wanted a shorter bus ride to and from work. In Austintown, I had to walk 10 minutes just to catch the bus. Then, the ride downtown was another 20 minutes. Now, it's just a 5 minute walk to catch the bus, (my choice of 2--soon to be 3--routes) and the ride downtown is now only 5 more minutes.

[CortlandGirl79]

Actually, i wasn't avoiding your responses, i just never got around to answering them yet. Geesh!

Maybe the power of blogging is over rated. None the less, i do enjoy reading the blogs and they are a good place for me to find stories i may not have heard on the news. Besides, i do like to hear some positives on Youngstown and the greater Youngstown area. It's much better that hearing the constant negatives i usually hear. I admit i'm a pretty positive person and i do see the Mahoning Valley through "rose colored" glasses at times. I don't think there is anything wrong with loving your hometown, county, region, etc.

Obviously, the greater MV has it's problems, especially Youngstown and Warren. I'm not blind. I'm not denying that things are bad. Shoot, i myself have been downsized living here. It's not like i haven't experienced the job losses. I've lived in the valley my entire life. Do I know what it's like to live in Youngstown???? No. Do I support the positive things that are going on there??? Of course. Someone has to have some hope around here.

so are plenty of many of the pre-blog advocates who have been there since the 80's and 90's. you have to bless them for sticking it out. you can't link to them, so they must not exist. sadly, those Youngstown advocates also have not been able to get any job creation.

I appreciate anyone from the past or present that is working to improve the valley. I didn't even come close to saying they don't exist. Lots of people have had great ideas over the years; many had some not so great ideas too.

it is great that phil kidd was able to parlay a blog and thinkers and drinkers into a job with the city. i do have to wonder, though, if he would feel as warmly about Youngstown if he were "Youngstown-born Youngstown-bread". the Youngstown community can really be close-knit and suspicious of outsiders. it makes sense, they have been hurt many times before. we should also note that there are many other groups of 20 to 30 somethings to whom this blogosphere is not reaching, and will never reach. it is nice that one clique is organizing, but let us not start including everyone in town over a tiny minority of the college educated whites who decided to stay. still, it must be said that to most in the city, bar bands have always been in Youngstown at cedar's and the royal oaks. major motion pictures regularly come to the theaters in the suburbs. the entertainment is not new, just the organization of getting them all at one point in time. the only bar which could bring in national bands recently was the nyabinghi, which has closed and looks like it has been looted (perhaps by the pagans mc down the road). the agora moved to cleveland many moons ago.

I think there are a good number of people from this area (i wasn't just talking about Youngstown when i started this thread, but the entire valley) that were born and bread here that have some optimism, not many, but some. I'm one of those people and i have a few friends that feel the same. I also have a lot of friends that say they would never move back here and that this place is a dump. Different strokes for different folks i suppose.

i would say to a large extent. even if we disagree on extent, i do not know how a metropolitan area can ever expect to turn a corner without jobs for people to work or new blood coming in. not having both leads to stagnation, much like Youngstown continues to have.

Ok, you're right, it's to a large extent. I don't care how stagnant or dying it is around here. I'm planning on staying. If the ship goes down i'm going with it.

if i am to believe your name, you would be someone who lives in Cortland. warren is a different world from Youngstown; and one that is not as dysfunctional as Youngstown. granted, there is a big brother-little brother thing between the two of them. nonetheless, the little bro is not as screwed up. it would be somewhat easier to change warren for the better to influence Youngstown than wait on Youngstown to change warren.

Actually, i don't live in Cortland anymore, i grew up there and it's a wonderful little town. I have previously lived in Niles and now Warren as an adult. I never said that anything in Trumbull County has the same dysfunction as y-town. Warren and to a lesser extent, Niles have a lot of problems. There are some parts of Warren i would avoid, just like many part of Youngstown. Both Y-town and Warren have gangs, drugs, prostitution, stripped down abandoned houses, poor leadership (more so in Warren's case i believe) and lots of slum lords.

the incubator is a good idea. i wouldn't place all my eggs in it due to the experimental nature of the whole idea of an incubator. maybe something will come from it. however, Youngstown will never be a silicon valley lite. there are too many other contenders for that title all over the country. for all of the ideas people are trying in Youngstown, most of them not coming from the mayor's office are not novel enough to attract attention. a new idea may still yet come from Youngstown, but there would have to be a reason what that brain would not drain away. especially if gm closes lordstown, which is a distinct possibility considering the state of the company.

I'm not placing all my eggs in one basket, i just think that the incubator is a bright light for the valley and it's something worth mentioning. I mean, they do have one of the fastest growing software companies in the U.S.

I'm not sure how old you are, how long you've lived here (i thought you said you came here for business, not that you lived here, is that right?), etc. All i know is that i'm going to be 30 years old. I don't remember the mills, i don't remember the "good old days", I've seen pictures and i know my history. I love learning things about our area and the great history that has taken place here. I'm especially interested in the history of Warren, the Packard family, the Western Reserve and so on. I love visiting both Warren and Youngstown's downtowns, i love Mill Creek Park, The Arms Museum, The Butler, The Museum of Labor and Industry, etc. Sorry if i'm I'm one of those people that likes to cheer for the underdog (i mean i'm a Browns fan for gods sake). I'm not wearing blinders, i understand the challenges we face here. I'm not sorry for having some hometown pride and i never will be. I will defend my home, Northeast Ohio, and the rust belt as long as i live. If people don't agree they are free to have their own opinions; I have mine and i'm sticking to them.

[CortlandGirl79]

Apparently i'm not the only one that doesn't get around to replying to threads in an efficient manner.

[WeSoHood]

Youngstown crime rate is NOT comparable to Minneapolis. It's much worse. Youngstown had what, 42 murders in 2007, while Minneapolis had 47 in 2006. Mind you, Youngstown is at a population at around 74,000.

Minneapolis is nearly FIVE times the size of Youngstown - yet the homicides are about the same. Atlanta is closer to the same amount of crimes. Also, you have to remember - many crimes in Youngstown go unaccounted for and are not reported. But, in terms of violent crimes - Youngstown is one of the worse in the nation up there with Cleveland, Detroit, Oakland, Compton, St Louis, Baltimore, etc.


But this is not to say the WHOLE area is crime ridden. There are some wonderful areas surrounding Youngstown with a very cheap cost of living and plenty of land to live/build on. The economy is in the hole, and Y-town is of course feeling the affects. It's just a matter of time (hopefully) that the local government gets cleaned out and overhauled by some competent individuals looking for change.

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by WeSoHood

Youngstown crime rate is NOT comparable to Minneapolis. It's much worse. Youngstown had what, 42 murders in 2007, while Minneapolis had 47 in 2006. Mind you, Youngstown is at a population at around 74,000.

Minneapolis is nearly FIVE times the size of Youngstown - yet the homicides are about the same. Atlanta is closer to the same amount of crimes. Also, you have to remember - many crimes in Youngstown go unaccounted for and are not reported. But, in terms of violent crimes - Youngstown is one of the worse in the nation up there with Cleveland, Detroit, Oakland, Compton, St Louis, Baltimore, etc.

Here are the 2006 statistics: (I got these from another site that allows a side by side comparison, so feel free to check with City-Data's 2006 stats)

Crimes per 100,000 people.

Murder -
Youngstown: 38.2
Minneapolis: 15.2

Forcible Rape -
Youngstown: 57.87
Minneapolis: not reported

Robbery -
Youngstown: 431.6
Minneapolis: 806.8

Aggravated Assault -
Youngstown: 669.2
Minneapolis: 755.7

Burglary -
Youngstown: 2431.9
Minneapolis: 1552.3

Larceny Theft -
Youngstown: 2575.4
Minneapolis: 3493.2

Vehicle Theft -
Youngstown: 845.2
Minneapolis: 965.9

I've said this many times before, as someone who lives in Youngstown, I'm not really worried about being murdered because I don't use or deal drugs, and am not a member of a gang.

Are you sure all crimes are reported in other cities? (like Minneapolis?)

I'd write more, but have got to get to work.

[CortlandGirl79]

Ok, let's get back on subject here. This thread is about moving to the Youngstown metro.

[WeSoHood]

Originally Posted by JR_C

Here are the 2006 statistics: (I got these from another site that allows a side by side comparison, so feel free to check with City-Data's 2006 stats)

.

Yes, but by no means do I believe Minneapolis is in the same crime category. For one, in cities like Youngstown with a lacking police force and citizens who are reluctant to call in crimes - the numbers aren't going to be the correct.

I would much rather be caught stranded in Minneapolis than Youngstown. If you factor in poverty, abandoned buildings, gangs, etc.. it wouldn't be fun. You have to remember Youngstown is 75,000 people and still more violent than Minneapolis. Youngstown and Cleveland continue to be in the most dangerous cities top 10, top 15 list every year - and it's for a reason.

Basically, it's hard to compare the two. Petty thefts, etc mainly go undocumented in Youngstown.. trust me I know. You could have a robbery in progress and by the time the cops arrive - they tell you there isn't much they can do, so you don't file a police report. I have relatives who have been victims of crimes who simply wouldn't report it because they knew nothing would happen because of the corrupt and lacking police force.


(and no offense to city-data, I don't use their statistics on crime because most of the time it's incorrect. for instance, Clevelands are way off... but I did google and compare the cities.. and other crimes seem similar in numbers)

It's just the fact that a city with 73,000 people has 42 murders - Compton, I believe is the only other city the same size with those numbers... and you know peoples perception of Compton.. I won't even get into drug use

[CortlandGirl79]

Please, if you want to discuss stats, start a new thread! Back on subject please!

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by CortlandGirl79

Please, if you want to discuss stats, start a new thread! Back on subject please!

I won't discuss stats in this thread any more. I think the stats I did provide speak for themselves, but everyone can come to their own conclusions.

Have a happy holiday!

[000000]

Originally Posted by JR_C

But Youngstown has many things that a lot of other cities its size do not have: a world class museum, a university, Stambaugh Auditorium, the DeYor Center, Mill Creek Park, etc.

...just like every other midwest city whose heyday is in the past. well, mill creek park is a bit bigger than most parks.
the thing about youngstown is that there has been nothing new of note that has come from the city since the 70's that does not fail at some point. the steel mills, phar-mor, the steelhounds, all had support until they failed on their own. locals may have fondness for things, but no one from outside is going to care about an area that has nothing going on in it that they can't find almost anywhere else, a reputation for crime, and no jobs to work once they get there. that is, unless they want to take advantage of the people looking for any silver bullet.

Originally Posted by JR_C

My question is, when speaking of crime, why is it such a issue here, but seems to be overlooked in other places where it's just as much of a problem? Afterall, as you point out, crime plays such a large role in Youngstown's bad image, but it's not really that different from many other cities across the U.S. (I'm not suggesting that we ignore the crime problem)

crime has always been part of youngstown, and seemingly always will be. it is an everpresent element when people want to walk around youngstown or deal with the corrupt local governments.
i think it is the true dream of the shared conciousness of the area is that crime will get to a point where it is manageable. maybe then some jobs would come in, or enough people will move out so that the town becomes truly small. those few who want to gentrify need the area to grow big to support their lofty ambitions.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I guess it depends on what your interests are, and how much you need to be entertained. I don't need that much recreation. (afterall, I'm spending a portion of my Friday night replying to you, and I consider that recreation. ) But, if the weather were more cooperative, I'd spend tomorrow afternoon at the artist's open-house at the old Ward Bakery building. (22-23rd and 29th from noon to 5) After that, I might have gone downtown to spend the rest of the evening at one of the "bars." (I'll address that later.)

i don't know how old you are, but i do not sense that you are young. you do not seem to have grown up while the city was in free fall. the general sense of hopelessness from that period mixed with the fact that one can only visit the park, the butler, or the schwbel's bread factory so often means that the city is *boring*. even if you got more people from out of the area coming in, you have to give them more than a couple months of things to do.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I can't say I've experienced this personally, but I've read this sort of sentiment on the vindy boards toward Phill Kidd recently. I've been welcomed pretty warmly by my neighbors.

you also do not have an uppity approach, and are a native of the area.

Originally Posted by JR_C

A journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. At least they patched some of them in the first place, and then came back.

just because someone is walking doesn't mean that they are going in a good direction... i can not champion attempts that bear no tangible fruit.
if they were competent, they would've done it right the first time. however, the honest in town tend to be incompetent.

Originally Posted by JR_C

This occurred to me before, and may not apply directly to this quote. I think you and I have a fundamentally different view of what the Youngstown blogs are about. You seem to believe they think they are the only thing happening in Youngstown, that they believe they are going to be the salvation of Youngstown, and, without them, they city will continue its decline into despair. Maybe this is not what you think of them, but it's the impression I get from your posts here. To me they are a source of news for the area; they tell me what good things are happening. Some of them do propose ideas. And, sometimes they will just point out the great things we already have that are often overlooked. The Youngstown blogs are just one part of a greater movement to make Youngstown a better place.

we do have a different idea, but you have my impression wrong. i feel that a small number of people are only reaching and informing themselves about their own clique. while it is o.k. to inform your own clique, don't wrap the banner of the whole city around your efforts behind a computer screen. plus, having to brag about going to a farmer's market and buying something is less about the local community and more about the ego of the author.

Originally Posted by JR_C

You should attend an Idora neighborhood meeting, then. Some would consider that neighborhood among the worst in the city. But, there are probably 100 or so people who have left their houses and joined together to make their neighborhood better. The Garden District neighborhood group started with a couple people sitting on a front porch, and had grown to over 60 people. (we've been having some behind the scenes trouble--differences of opinion among the leadership--so our numbers have suffered)

i't's happening again! small, petty politiking over small potatoes hurting a local group with good intentions once there is some degree of success behind the project. pure youngstown.

Originally Posted by JR_C

I can say with a fair amount of certainty that they would love to have greater diversity in their numbers. How would you suggest they achieve that?

talk to, and work with, people outside of their clique in person. then again, the clique will have to come to the other groups correct. do not use it as a jumping board to something else (whether it be local art, or local politics. those side missions are SO played out around youngstown.) by proving your good intentions.

Originally Posted by JR_C

Positive attitudes don't keep money out of the economy. The negative attitudes help keep people (and their money) away.

nor do positive attitudes do not create money for the economy. positive attitudes do not decorrupt local government. positive attitudes do not lessen union sentiment in the area. positive attitudes will not stop crime borne of desperation. positive attitudes of people without capital will not create a single job.
while i understand your point that negativity produces bad mojo; i do not see how positive attitudes alone change anything either. maybe they make for more prolific blog posting, but they still are not capital.

Originally Posted by JR_C

To me, it sounds like you think the blogs are useless because they aren't putting all their efforts into creating jobs.

they are useless because they are just blobs of recycled text only reaching a few people. if i thought i was changing something by posting on this message board, i'd be labelled a fool. if i put a little sunshine in a blog post, how am i suddenly doing good for the community? until i see some art, i am going to call the blogs as i see them; as crayon drawing on a fridge.


well, if i am off base with bloggers they decided to shut themselves off from me. they never showed their reasons why they do what they do.