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We aren't expecting he will find work in any of the places we would like to live so he has been searching all of OC for jobs. I agree that the COL probably does even out, but that isn't helpful to us since part of the reason for moving would be to get into a better financial situation. Bay Area to OC is just trading one tough set of circumstances for another. We would be getting the weather and proximity to the ocean that we prefer, but it would also come at a great cost to DH's career. The opportunities for him in the Bay Area are exciting and many, whereas he would be settling for the jobs in OC and if he isn't happy at his job, it will be much harder for him to find a new one. In contrast, he is being offered jobs in our area on what seems to be a weekly basis. He has stayed put as he thinks it looks bad to jump around, but the point is, he has many opportunities here. The problem is that even with the higher salaries, we still cannot afford to buy a house where we live and prices continue to be driven up by all cash buyers, many foreign investors.
I agree that we most likely wouldn't be happy long term in DC. I used to be a volunteer lobbyist for HSUS so I spent time there and never considered relocating there as the humidity in the summers is brutal and the traffic is out of control. There are lots of trees and the canopy is very pretty, but it just isn't California.
We haven't given up on SoCal yet, there is no reason to since it isn't as though we are settled where we are. In a perfect world, DH would find one of those jobs that allows you to work from anywhere.
Yes, it really boils down to finding the right opportunity in SoCal or a telecommute position somewhere else.
What is true for your husband's work is also true for my line of work - software engineering. There are just more opportunities here near the Bay Area (including Monterey for me) than anywhere in SoCal where I've also lived and worked the majority of my life. That's not to say there aren't opportunities there. They just don't jump out at you like here. So you have to search them out more and expect more competition. With more high tech companies here comes more opportunities for all skilled professionals. I don't really see that changing in the Bay Area. Telecommuting options seemed to have increased some. Yet face time is still important for some positions, especially where meeting clients are apart of doing business.
There are a lot of creative ways people create wealth in SoCal. I agree that many coastal homeowners do not work 'normal' jobs.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 02-03-2014 at 07:53 PM..
We are finding there are consulting jobs in his field, but they require at least 15% travel, some of them as much as 100% travel, neither of which is feasible for a family with four children and no support system in place.
We are going to continue to watch the job listings in SoCal and weigh our options. As you know, these choices are never just about what we want anymore. When you become parents, suddenly there are so many other considerations to factor in.
That is a good point and serves to remind me how thankful I am be to be able to live here as a W2 type person at this stage of my life. I work very hard just to pay my mortgage, with not so much left over after taxes are taken out, other expenses etc. Nonetheless, I am happy in my poverty. Most of my neighbors are workers too, albeit highly skilled (like myself) and presumably fairly highly paid. We don't live near the beach, but can get there in just a few short minutes.
When I go to the beach, I am also struck by the extreme wealth in my midst, and sometimes, the almost garish displays of that wealth, but I still enjoy the beach just as the residents there do. I do not begrudge the wealth that many created; after all, many worked hard for it. Still I cannot help but wonder if growing up in such an environment where kids do not see parents with a traditional job, and with instead, passive income (e.g. rental income) impacts the values of kids. I wonder too if this doesn't hurt their desires to succeed in life and instead motivates them to simply wait it out until such time as they can inherit wealth. I say this from having seen the same thing in coastal San Diego as it related to the kids of very wealthy families. The highly affluent kids had little motivation to accomplish anything in life, no ambition, etc. What I see in OC is even more extreme than San Diego.
Actually, most people who live in, or near, beach towns are also W-2 employees. 64.0 % of Californians fall into that category. It's a myth that beach town dwellers are all living off of investments.
Nor, is it true that people who do not live in beach towns are all struggling wage slaves, while beach town dwellers spend their days sipping martinis (Okay, nobody actually put it that way).
Actually, most people who live in, or near, beach towns are also W-2 employees.
Oddly, you're again misunderstanding what is actually being discussed here.
No one is discussing W2 workers as a percentage of the population of coastal cities, the actual topic being discussed is W2 workers making the median income who actually own homes on the coast, just in case that wasn't clear from the previous 5-6 pages of discussion.
For Laguna Beach, Dana Point, and Santa Monica, that number is probably close to zero which is why median income will always be a horrible indicator of housing affordability in those cities. Just ask jaynetarzana, or any of the tens of thousands of people who are in that bucket and post on City-Data, but will find it difficult to own a decent home in those areas without a lot of frugal saving, and sacrifice.
Places like Aliso Viejo and Mission Viejo are great cities, but they are more middle/mid-upper class type communities with more W2 earners who can actually own a home due to the lower concentration of wealth, slightly less desirability, and the much lower housing prices reflect that reality. Most of OC's millionaires live on the coast, rather than inland. That's not a myth, it's simply reality.
Yes, you can have a regular W2 job, rent an apartment on the coast, and live a perfectly happy life. But it's unlikely that individual (unless they are really frugal, and have a huge down payment) will be living on the coast with a 1800 sqft, 3/2 they own, a view of the beach, and that's perfectly fine, but again, we were discussing people who seek to actually "own" and not "rent". The home buying situation is not so bleak in places like Aliso Viejo, Lake Forest, etc which would make it a better candidate IMO for someone wanting to buy/own.
Last edited by ExeterMedia; 02-03-2014 at 10:30 PM..
Reason: formatting
That is a good point and serves to remind me how thankful I am be to be able to live here as a W2 type person at this stage of my life. I work very hard just to pay my mortgage, with not so much left over after taxes are taken out, other expenses etc. Nonetheless, I am happy in my poverty. Most of my neighbors are workers too, albeit highly skilled (like myself) and presumably fairly highly paid. We don't live near the beach, but can get there in just a few short minutes.
When I go to the beach, I am also struck by the extreme wealth in my midst, and sometimes, the almost garish displays of that wealth, but I still enjoy the beach just as the residents there do. I do not begrudge the wealth that many created; after all, many worked hard for it. Still I cannot help but wonder if growing up in such an environment where kids do not see parents with a traditional job, and with instead, passive income (e.g. rental income) impacts the values of kids. I wonder too if this doesn't hurt their desires to succeed in life and instead motivates them to simply wait it out until such time as they can inherit wealth. I say this from having seen the same thing in coastal San Diego as it related to the kids of very wealthy families. The highly affluent kids had little motivation to accomplish anything in life, no ambition, etc. What I see in OC is even more extreme than San Diego.
I can't agree that kids raised in immense wealth are doomed to no ambition, or mediocrity. We have neighbors who have a son at Harvard Law. The kids is by my estimation a high IQ individual who will probably end up a partner at some high end firm if he continues his current trajectory. One of the most intelligent, down-to-earth, and highly motivated kids I've ever met. His families net worth is in the tens of millions. We also have neighbors where their "32 year old kid" lives at home, and basically spends his time working on his Porsche all day, they own several franchises throughout the North OC area, and the kid is "supposed" to help manage them.
When it comes down to it, parents of modest means, and those of wealthy means, must be responsible for the raising of their children. That is what will determine whether a child is ambitious and successful, or not.
Oddly, you're again misunderstanding what is actually being discussed here.
No one is discussing W2 workers as a percentage of the population of coastal cities, the actual topic being discussed is W2 workers making the median income who actually own homes on the coast, just in case someone was missing the point (again). Most of the preceding pages have been a discussion of the ability to buy a home in coastal areas. Again I hope the thread isn't that confusing.
For Laguna Beach, Dana Point, and Santa Monica, that number is probably close to zero which is why median income will always be a horrible indicator of housing affordability in those cities. Just ask jaynetarzana, or any of the tens of thousands of people who are in that bucket and post on City-Data, but will find it difficult to own a decent home in those areas without a lot of frugal saving, and sacrifice.
Places like Aliso Viejo and Mission Viejo are great cities, but they are more middle-upper class type communities with more W2 earners who can actually own a home due to the lower concentration of wealth, slightly less desirability, and the much lower housing prices reflect that reality.
Yes, you can have a regular W2 job, rent an apartment on the coast, and live a perfectly happy life. But it's unlikely in this lifetime (unless you are really frugal, and save until you're 65) that such an individual will be living on the coast with a 1800 sqft, 3/2 they own, a view of the beach, and that's perfectly fine, but again, we were discussing people who seek to actually "own" and not "rent".
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with this observation as one who grew in just such a SoCal beach town of Manhattan Beach where the current median home price is $1.3 million. Sure, you will have many folks living there with a wide range of incomes including college students who all share a rental. But there is no way the median income earners own their own beach homes beyond a few rare exceptions, unless they had a lot of help from generous benefactors. Sometimes due to gentrification you also have the 'real estate wealthy' older folks who bought at the right time many years ago and are working just to pay the real estate taxes. But even that is more rare than it used to be as the majority cash out and go live somewhere more affordable. Its one thing to look at general income numbers which can mislead and another entirely to walk the streets and talk to locals, neighbors, etc... These areas are exclusive for a reason - the majority of the US and world simply cannot afford to purchase these homes.
If one truly loves living very close to the beach in a nice area like we do then certain sacrifices are made. One of them happens to be owning beach front property. We're in the same boat somewhat in Monterey now where we could move inland a bit and potentially buy. But there is a quality of life benefit in being able to walk down to the beach after work that trumps owning for us right now. So we lease. Maybe in the future that will change. But for now the beach and ocean are our backyard and that is worth it to me.
Derek
Last edited by MtnSurfer; 02-03-2014 at 10:49 PM..
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with this observation as one who grew in just such a SoCal beach town of Manhattan Beach where the current median home price is $1.3 million. Sure, you will have many folks living there with a wide range of incomes including college students who all share a rental. But there is no way the median income earners own their own beach homes beyond a few rare exceptions, unless they had a lot of help from generous benefactors. Sometimes due to gentrification you also have the 'real estate wealthy' older folks who bought at the right time many years ago and are working just to pay the real estate taxes. But even that is more rare than it used to be as the majority cash out and go live somewhere more affordable. Its one thing to look at general income numbers which can mislead and another entirely to walk the streets and talk to locals, neighbors, etc... These areas are exclusive for a reason - the majority of the US and world simply cannot afford to purchase these homes.
Derek
Exactly, looking at "internet info" about W2 earners is one thing, and actually living in a city like Manhattan Beach or Dana Point are two different things. I can tell you, people making $80,000 aren't going to be owning a home on the coast here in OC, or LA. Not unless they have a time machine to go back to 1970.
Let's put it like this, in the past 3 months nearly 40 properties in Dana Point sold for over $1,000,000 according to RedFin. 12 properties over $2,000,000, 4 over $5,000,000, and one property sold for nearly $12,000,000 (near Strand's).
In Aliso Viejo during the same period, only 8 homes sold for over $1,000,000. None over $1.3m. If that doesn't explain the huge difference in concentration of wealth between coastal cities, and inland cities, I'm not sure what will.
Prices are all about desirability, and also partially a cultural construct believe it or not. Beach houses are usually seen as status symbols, like a bright red italian sports car, or a fancy watch. So you get a lot of entrepreneurs, or new money types who simply buy a huge beach home and don't even live in it half the time. We knew a couple like that who actually lived in Texas most of the year, and owned a multi-million dollar home in San Clemente that had panoramic ocean views, just for the Summers. Must be nice.
But like you mentioned, beach cities offer a natural beauty and "quality of life element", and a lot of people find a lot of value in that.
Last edited by ExeterMedia; 02-03-2014 at 11:05 PM..
Reason: formatting
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Prices are all about desirability, and also partially a cultural construct believe it or not. Beach houses are usually seen as status symbols, like a bright red italian sports car, or a fancy watch. So you get a lot of entrepreneurs, or new money types who simply buy a huge beach home and don't even live in it half the time. We knew a couple like that who actually lived in Texas most of the year, and owned a multi-million dollar home in San Clemente that had panoramic ocean views just for the Summers. Must be nice.
That's exactly it. The beach front homes all up and down the coast, especially in the most desirable areas, typically belong the the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Many of them are vacant and just another place among many to visit occasionally. It seems like crazy money. But if money is no object then buying those homes are not really a big deal.
But like you mentioned, beach cities offer a natural beauty and "quality of life element", and a lot of people find a lot of value in that.
And that is why I do not begrudge them one bit. Fortunately and unfortunately (depending on how one looks at it) I grew enjoying the daily sounds of the waves breaking along the beach which I could hear from home. I loved walking along the sand daily, smelling the salt air, hearing the fog horn, watching the sunset over the ocean like a living painting before my eyes. That's a hard thing to have embedded in your psyche as a child and then move away from later. But I moved away none the less, bought the big house, lived the American dream... only discover it wasn't my dream in its truest sense. Home ownership in nice suburbia didn't compare to the quality of life I experienced growing up near the sea.
Home ownership in nice suburbia didn't compare to the quality of life I experienced growing up near the sea. Derek
Hear, hear!
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