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Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,095,590 times
Reputation: 15538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly
LOL. This is such a strange thread. I haven't seen this level of simping for multi-billion dollar corporations in print since the last CPAC conference.
Maybe its because there has never been such a blatant case of political retribution like this.
As for Orlando I remember International Drive in the 70's where the only thing there was Wet & Wild and Sea World , to look out to the East all you saw was empty land and a few lone palm trees. Don't think its explosive growth over the decades wasn't attributed to the mouse, space race had nothing to do with it. I strongly believe Bush Gardens developed their theme park in Tampa over Orlando because of the competition.
Maybe its because there has never been such a blatant case of political retribution like this.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. It can be true that DeSantis is delivering payback. It can simultaneously be true that Disney gets unfair tax breaks.
Quote:
As for Orlando I remember International Drive in the 70's where the only thing there was Wet & Wild and Sea World , to look out to the East all you saw was empty land and a few lone palm trees. Don't think its explosive growth over the decades wasn't attributed to the mouse, space race had nothing to do with it. I strongly believe Bush Gardens developed their theme park in Tampa over Orlando because of the competition.
You got your timelines mixed up there. Busch Gardens opened in '59. The two decades of fastest growth in the region were from 1920-1930 (150%) and from 1950-1960 (129%). Also, yes, UCF was established in 1962 with groundbreaking in 1964 because of the space race.
Growth in Orange County has outpaced growth in Duval in all but two decades going all the way back to 1870, pretty similar story with Hillsborough going back to 1930 (all but one decade.) There's nothing special about growth in OC post-Disney. The decades where growth was higher than usual (1920s, 50s, and 80s) there was a bump in all of the urban counties in the state, not just here.
Status:
"Let this year be over..."
(set 23 days ago)
Location: Where my bills arrive
19,219 posts, read 17,095,590 times
Reputation: 15538
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly
Multiple things can be true at the same time. It can be true that DeSantis is delivering payback. It can simultaneously be true that Disney gets unfair tax breaks.
You got your timelines mixed up there. Busch Gardens opened in '59. The two decades of fastest growth in the region were from 1920-1930 (150%) and from 1950-1960 (129%). Also, yes, UCF was established in 1962 with groundbreaking in 1964 because of the space race.
Growth in Orange County has outpaced growth in Duval in all but two decades going all the way back to 1870, pretty similar story with Hillsborough going back to 1930 (all but one decade.) There's nothing special about growth in OC post-Disney. The decades where growth was higher than usual (1920s, 50s, and 80s) there was a bump in all of the urban counties in the state, not just here.
What tax breaks does Disney get when their assessed by the state and counties for their obligations. They pay additional tax to the district to cover infrastructure upkeep, improvements, and expansion when needed.
Bush Garden didn't get their first coaster till 76 before that they were a wild animal park. What would OC be without the 75k direct and 400k+ jobs that Disney has brought, do you really bring all the other businesses and attractions would have chosen to settle there? Per Wikipedia "The vacation resort opened in October 1971, ushering in an explosive population and economic growth for the Orlando metropolitan area, which now encompasses Orange, Seminole, Osceola, and Lake Counties. As a result, tourism became the centerpiece of the area's economy. Orlando now has more theme parks and entertainment attractions than anywhere else in the world"
I think it's incredibly stupid and hypocritical of DeSantis to go after Disney like he is...let's be a pro-business state and not another California that bans businesses that don't agree with the politics of those in charge of government. It just goes to show you though, most people are sheep regardless of the party. The same people who have been criticizing woke governments canceling businesses that don't align with them are the same ones now defending DeSantis's actions on weaponizing the government against a business for not aligning with him. It was also a dumb idea of Disney's ex-CEO to essentially campaign against the state's governor who allowed them to stay open during most of Covid. I'd be pissed off if I was a shareholder, but corporations as far as I know have freedom of speech. I'd rather be viewed as the most pro-business state in the country instead of the Conservative version of California.
I'm retired. I've worked for a town engineering office, which issued building permits for businesses in the town, and investigated FEMA flood zone information for homeowners and businesses interested in purchasing or expanding properties. I also live IN a special government district, one of the ones exempt by the law, which was targeted specifically against Disney. So I'm a bit familiar with how this stuff works. Your analogy fails on many levels.
Let's say that Westfield mall expands, and sucks up more property. Let's say it builds resort hotels, and time-share, where people can actually live for several months out of the year (but not be permanent residents so their existence doesn't show up on the graphics or pie charts). Let's say the roads leading from one hotel to the other are PUBLIC roads, not toll roads, not gated. Let's also add some more stores and shops off the actual mall property in the surrounding areas, and let private companies run them - and again - have PUBLIC roads that connect them all. Let's have sewers and fire departments and a few EMTs and ambulances, an urgent care center, a department of public works or similar. Let's landscape the whole thing, with palms and flowers and gardens and park benches, where anyone - the Public - can sit and enjoy the view. Heck let's even have a couple of bus stops so people with limited access to private transportation and come and go.
Now let's have Westfield say "WE will pay to maintain ALL of this. Instead of paying taxes so someone ELSE has to do that." And so it becomes its own government district, able to cover the expense of handling the entire shebang. Within that district is - yes - the mall itself, and the mall parking lot, which is all "private" property. The hotels themselves are private property, just like the Holiday Inn in downtown Orlando is private property. But it sits on a public street, with public sidewalks, that get paid for by - NOT taxpayers. It's paid for by Westfield.
That is what DisneyWorld has done. They created a CDD which was approved by the state government to run the region at their own expense in lieu of paying tax to a different district to run it on their behalf. They are ALSO paying a state tourism tax, and they are ALSO paying county taxes. Because even though they are an entity unto themselves who cover the expense of maintaining all this PUBLIC and private property, they are still within a county and state that imposes taxes independent of their district.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drive carephilly
Look, I don't know what line of work you're in so forgive me for making assumptions about what I might consider general knowledge about the differences between a private business and municipal government. I'm going to try to explain it better here -
I live in Orlando. When I get my tax bill I can see the lines for City of Orlando, for the County, for the School District, etc. I don't complain that most of my tax revenue gets sent elsewhere in the City or County. I'm aware that some people do complain about it but I'm also aware that none of us get to draw a line around our neighborhoods and set our own tax rate to pay for only the things in our neighborhood - or otherwise hypothecate our taxes. The only time that happens is when your community opts in to pay extra taxes (e.g., Baldwin Park).
Large companies don't typically get to do that either but if/when they do it's for a pre-determined period of time that usually sunsets after a few years or gradually phases out over a period of 10 years.
If I'm Westfield Corp. and I set out to build a new shopping mall, I have to build all of the infrastructure associated with that mall. It's all on me. On top of having to pay for it I will also pay extra taxes on the assessed value of all of the improvements I just made to the property. Roads, sewer & water, parking garages, etc. Additionally, I will also have to pay impact fees and/or pay for improvements off-site to mitigate the impacts my site will cause, e.g., I may have to pay for new traffic lights a 1/2 mile down the road to handle the extra traffic created by my presence.
I will also have to pay for an electrical substation and, this being 2023, I will likely pay a substantial sum upfront for a solar array on my rooftop to generate additional income over the life of the solar panels. I will also pay property taxes on that improvement.
But if you're Disney you don't pay taxes on any of those things because they're "municipally owned." On top of that you can issue bonds to pay for those things and pay a lower rate because the interest that your investors get is non-taxable. You can see these things plain as day on the OC Property Appraisers website. The Grapefruit Garage at Disney Springs pays no taxes. Universal paid $866,000 in taxes last year for their employee garage. The energy plant at that Disney has pays no taxes. Universal's much smaller energy plant is part of the overall tax bill for Universal Studios but you can see its separate assessment in their tax bill. Disney's big solar farm along 429? Yup, tax exempt.
I'm retired. I've worked for a town engineering office, which issued building permits for businesses in the town, and investigated FEMA flood zone information for homeowners and businesses interested in purchasing or expanding properties. I also live IN a special government district, one of the ones exempt by the law, which was targeted specifically against Disney. So I'm a bit familiar with how this stuff works.
Is the Board of your special district controlled by one company?
Quote:
Your analogy fails on many levels.
Let's say that Westfield mall expands, and sucks up more property. Let's say it builds resort hotels, and time-share, where people can actually live for several months out of the year (but not be permanent residents so their existence doesn't show up on the graphics or pie charts). Let's say the roads leading from one hotel to the other are PUBLIC roads, not toll roads, not gated. Let's also add some more stores and shops off the actual mall property in the surrounding areas, and let private companies run them - and again - have PUBLIC roads that connect them all. Let's have sewers and fire departments and a few EMTs and ambulances, an urgent care center, a department of public works or similar. Let's landscape the whole thing, with palms and flowers and gardens and park benches, where anyone - the Public - can sit and enjoy the view. Heck let's even have a couple of bus stops so people with limited access to private transportation and come and go.
Now let's have Westfield say "WE will pay to maintain ALL of this. Instead of paying taxes so someone ELSE has to do that." And so it becomes its own government district, able to cover the expense of handling the entire shebang. Within that district is - yes - the mall itself, and the mall parking lot, which is all "private" property. The hotels themselves are private property, just like the Holiday Inn in downtown Orlando is private property. But it sits on a public street, with public sidewalks, that get paid for by - NOT taxpayers. It's paid for by Westfield.
That is what DisneyWorld has done. They created a CDD which was approved by the state government to run the region at their own expense in lieu of paying tax to a different district to run it on their behalf. They are ALSO paying a state tourism tax, and they are ALSO paying county taxes. Because even though they are an entity unto themselves who cover the expense of maintaining all this PUBLIC and private property, they are still within a county and state that imposes taxes independent of their district.
You didn't explain how my analogy fails - you just reiterated how RCID works (somewhat incorrectly because RCID isn't a CDD).
Cities and counties court businesses, especially commercial development, because it's more valuable than residential development. In other words, because the tax receipts are larger for commercial property it helps to keep taxes lower for local residents. The taxes from businesses get spent on other things in the community that aren't directly related to that business. Lots of money goes to pay for police and fire for the whole community, not just our hypothetical mall. Lots of money goes into social services and to the schools.
When you incorporate your mall as its own town you're externalizing the negative aspects of your business on the local community while not contributing to the local tax base in the same way that other businesses have to - in order to mitigate those negative aspects. When you're your own town you only charge yourself exactly what it takes to fund your needs and not a penny more. You can also move crucial parts of your business off of the tax roles by calling it a function of your municipal government.
I think it's incredibly stupid and hypocritical of DeSantis to go after Disney like he is...let's be a pro-business state and not another California that bans businesses that don't agree with the politics of those in charge of government. It just goes to show you though, most people are sheep regardless of the party. The same people who have been criticizing woke governments canceling businesses that don't align with them are the same ones now defending DeSantis's actions on weaponizing the government against a business for not aligning with him. It was also a dumb idea of Disney's ex-CEO to essentially campaign against the state's governor who allowed them to stay open during most of Covid. I'd be pissed off if I was a shareholder, but corporations as far as I know have freedom of speech. I'd rather be viewed as the most pro-business state in the country instead of the Conservative version of California.
Agreed.
. . . and the same people who were railing against corporate tax breaks and tax loopholes 2 years ago are totally fine with it in this case because they don't like DeSantis.
. . . and the same people who were railing against corporate tax breaks and tax loopholes 2 years ago are totally fine with it in this case because they don't like DeSantis.
Yep exactly... since when did the left becomes supporters of corporations having governing jurisdictions and special taxing districts lol.
Yep exactly... since when did the left becomes supporters of corporations having governing jurisdictions and special taxing districts lol.
When they become targets of dictator wannabes due to their support of those being ostracized by said bullying dictator. There are over 1800 special tax districts in Florida, yet DeSantis hasn't uttered a peep over any of them other than Disney. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
When they become targets of dictator wannabes due to their support of those being ostracized by said bullying dictator. There are over 1800 special tax districts in Florida, yet DeSantis hasn't uttered a peep over any of them other than Disney. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
desantis made his legislation expressly to target Disney. That's why only a couple of districts are included at all. He put a "any of these things created before THIS date" clause into it. Only three districts qualified for the restrictions. That was intentional, to make sure the OTHER ones (in particular, The Villages, whose developer the Morse family donates MILLIONS to the GOP every year and hosts them when they come campaigning in their developer-owned theatre) don't have to abide by the legislation.
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Multiple things can be true at the same time. It can be true that DeSantis is delivering payback. It can simultaneously be true that Disney gets unfair tax breaks. 
