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Not sure if that applies. It says that it's often not diagnosed until middle school when demands increase to work independently.
Her son is only 5 years old, and he doesn't sound like he's an unusual 5 year old boy IMO.
I only know two children diagnosed with it and one was diagnosed at 6 and the other at 9. In the case of the nine year old (third grader). He consistently couldn't complete timed worksheets or tests that had more than 10 questions on them -his mind would wander. He could answer 100 questions orally but a written test or assignment he would fail only able to get through a portion of the items. He also had organizational issues and an inability to complete tasks unless they were on a written list and checked off as they were completed. I don't know the details of the 6 yo's diagnosis.
Syracusa, how frustrating this must be for you!! So he actually takes the crayons, every time...and drops them on the floor? He doesn't just set them ON the table, but puts his hand out to the side and drops them on the floor?...everything? I mean, not putting them back into the box or dropping them on the table when he's done...that I don't see as an issue, but you're saying he doesn't even do THAT?...He just moves his hand to the side and drops them on the floor?
Beachmel,
Actually, no. He does not take them and drops them on the floor, definitely not on purpose.
He simply goes through several of them, leaves them on the desk but the surface is somewhat small (as he often piles up other things there too) - so he simply doesn't notice when they drop. He is not careful to at least push the crayons he went through further in the middle. As such, they end up towards the edge and drop, without him noticing it.
He is often not aware of what secondary moves he is doing (such as switching crayons) because he gets too engulfed in the MAIN thing (in this case drawing). He is a TERRIBLE multi-tasker and a typical space-cadet.
We are convinced he is what doctors diagnose "ADHD" nowadays. The psych suggested Aspergers but she said the other dx is probably coming up too!
While it is true he exhibits SOME traits of Aspergers, he is extremely high-functioning in this respect (probably on the continuum towards completely normal) so we pretty much rejected the label.
Upon meetimg him, nobody would be able to make such an association (that he might have Aspergers).
However, the ADHD is right there, in your face.
I got some good suggestions here - so thanks a bunch everyone.
Based on the OP, the child is constantly dropping and losing things, with crayons being the one example. However, I wonder what other examples there are?
While he could very well be ADHD, he could also simply be a right brained child. Something that has come to my mind many times from the OP's posts about him.
So, after looking at it from this vantage point....does he seem to maybe be right brained? If so, lowered expectations to start with, repetition with focus on specific goal (with rewards) will go a long way in helping him compensate for being less left brained.....
Hypocore,
He does a lot of the things you mentioned, both right-brained and ADHD.
Right brained children tend to finish art creations and proudly show them to you, or get frustrated they are not turning out the way they want and throw them away.
Yes He starts a drawing, it's not coming out the way he wants, abandons it and tries it again on the next page. He goes through a lot of pages practicing drawing dinosaurs (his main interest - which prompted the suspicion about Asperger).
ADHD children might not even finish a drawing and leave it all behind to go on to the next thing, forgetting about it until they see it again. Not that I've noticed.
Right brained children would switch to other mediums while creating, like markers or paint, just to see how it is different. He does switch some, but often stays with the same medium.
ADHD children are more prone to stick to what feels right in their hands or what they are used to using. He does that more than switching.
Right brained children tend to want to show off what they are creating and may know exactly what it is they have made, but may not be able to explain it clearly. He shows it off, yes and he can clearly explain what he is doing. He is extremely verbal.
ADHD children may have no clear idea of what they have drawn and begin to talk about something else entirely and leave it behind, unwanted. Not that I've noticed.
When told to clean up, a right brained child may think putting the crayons on the desk is cleaning up and be done and off to their next activity.
Yes, he has that tendency. He doesn't like to do any non-preferred activity judiciously, he just blasts through it to be done with it (again, another Asperger trait, supposedly).
An ADHD child will put some of the crayons in the box, some of the paper back in the bin and then start to draw again, forgetting they are supposed to be cleaning up. He sometimes does that too. He's all over the GD place.
If he is indeed left brained then he may:
- be left handed, put out left foot first when putting on shoes, or left arm in jacket first (did not notice, but he does not draw or eat with left hand).
- think out of the box often (use a kitchen spoon to dig in the dirt)
(did not notice...in fact the psych thought that he was slightly rigid in his thinking, which again...sent her to Aspergers).
- miss important details (letters make words)
no...but then again, he is just 5 1/2 and he naturally still makes a lot of spelling mistakes which I do correct every time.
- have good intuition (knowing someone is sad) Yes (which points away from Aspergers; he's always picked on my most nuanced emotional states, facial expressions, etc. If he pays attention his intuition will detect it right away; but if his brains fly all over the wall in that moment, he obviously won't notice I am sad or whatever).
- have good instincts (good balance prevents him from falling). No. He is a clumsy child, constantly fidgets, constantly tips chair. (that would point both to ADHD and Aspergers).
- mentally connect things in unconventional ways that are confusing to others until the connecting
factor is discovered(new walmart commercial reminds him of a college graduation many years ago
connecting factor being the air horn blowing) did not notice that
- might be very frustrated doing puzzles because they are logical, yet building with Legos can be a joy
because they are big picture creations He likes both
- know the answer to a math problem, but not be able to explain how he got it
No.
But we are just now starting to work on additions and subtractions. However, my instincts right now say he won't be a math genius but he'll be able to stay on top of it with hard work. I was the same.
- be rather dramatic in reactions in ways that seem unreasonable because he doesn't see the close up issue but instead sees the long term problem Yes - a million times. He can be very emotional and sink into a meltdown when things don't go as he had expected them to.
So, I don't know what the conclusion would be.
He is probably a bit of every psych "affliction" we have around today.
Oh, well.
Actually, no. He does not take them and drops them on the floor, definitely not on purpose.
He simply goes through several of them, leaves them on the desk but the surface is somewhat small (as he often piles up other things there too) - so he simply doesn't notice when they drop. He is not careful to at least push the crayons he went through further in the middle. As such, they end up towards the edge and drop, without him noticing it.
He is often not aware of what secondary moves he is doing (such as switching crayons) because he gets too engulfed in the MAIN thing (in this case drawing). He is a TERRIBLE multi-tasker and a typical space-cadet.
We are convinced he is what doctors diagnose "ADHD" nowadays. The psych suggested Aspergers but she said the other dx is probably coming up too!
While it is true he exhibits SOME traits of Aspergers, he is extremely high-functioning in this respect (probably on the continuum towards completely normal) so we pretty much rejected the label.
Upon meetimg him, nobody would be able to make such an association (that he might have Aspergers).
However, the ADHD is right there, in your face.
I got some good suggestions here - so thanks a bunch everyone.
Is there anything else that he does that would lead you to believe there maybe something going on? It really just seems like a normal kid to me, maybe try some of the other tactics mentioned earlier, but I really don't think you have much to worry about.
Outside of other strong indicators something was wrong, please don't go off looking for a diagnosis as you will eventually find one if you try hard enough. What I mean by that, is behavior that may bother you or seem odd, maybe perfectly normal, but the more you look for that behavior, paint it in the light that something is wrong, it isn't too hard to get to the point where you have created the symptoms to the diagnosis and found a professional to agree with you.
Don't sell your son out as having a "condition" unless you have a lot of other evidence that there is something there beyond him being a messy artist.
Some to be focusing in on this being some sort of tick, which if that's the case, then there maybe something there.
However, just based on the example you gave, I don't see anything wrong or unusual about his behavior. My kids do the same thing when they are playing with crayons and paper (anythign really). They are so focused on what they are doing that they aren't conscious about making the mess. The key we have used is to be organized (bins, everything in a place, etc.) and teach them through normal reward/punish behaviors that we need to clean up one mess before making another.
If we make a mess with crayons and paper, we clean it up before getting out our lego's. If we don't clean it up, the crayons and paper get taken away for a little while. Same goes with toys that we organized into a bin system. We don't dump out all of our Ninja Turtles, play with them for 5 minutes and then go get our Transformers and dump them out, etc. We obviously have some leniency for the moments mutant turtles need to fight robot cars, but you get the point. Anything not cleaned up before we move on, gets taken away.
The most opportune time to reinforce this is at transition times. Going up for "quiet time" means everything is cleaned up before we go up. Leaving quiet time, means the mess from quiet time is cleaned up. Heading out to the park, we clean up before we leave, etc.
I really think at that age you should be focusing more on what happens after the mess, than on trying to get him not to make a mess in the first place. Using our method it didn't take long for my now 6 1/2 year old to realize around say age 5 or so that if he cleaned up as he went along that he wouldn't need to spend so much time doing it afterward. Being neat was almost a self taught habit. The key was placing the onous on them to clean up their own mess, the result of not doing so was losing what they were playing with.
I have practiced all of the above with him - consistently.
But he allows too much mess to pile up at "quiet/down" time even though he doesn't even have that many toyus/things in his room (try to keep them manageable). but he literally forgets about them and they end up on the floor somehow. He also like to cut things out (crafts) and makes a mess
on the floow with cut out paper all the tiem.
He is just not naturally neat and self-contained. It takes an enormous amount of energy on my part to constantly remind him to either not drop things on the floor in the first place, or pick them up after the deed is done anyway. Also, if I don't tell him 'pick them up', he would leave them there the end of eternity.
What is frustrating is that lessons, methods, consequences, you name it do not seem to work. His brain can't keep up.
But we're still grasping at straws now in the hope that we will be able to avoid meds in the future.
Limit his access to things. Put the crayons on the other side of the room, each color in its own see-through pocket. Show him the pockets all filled up. Tell him he can take ONE crayon to the desk to color with. That means ONE pocket is empty.
When he wants another color, he has to put that first one back, and then he can take a new crayon. This will leave ONE pocket empty, still. Just a different pocket. This will get him moving up and down, up and down, up and down, putting crayons back, taking them out, and so on and so forth. The process of getting and returning crayons will become an actual individual activity, instead of some obscure and vague "idea" of the cleaning process.
You could even do drills with him, by color-coding the clear pockets. Get paper, have him draw a little mark, tape that square to the bottom corner of the pocket. That pocket is now, and forever, the GREEN pocket. Only green crayons go there. This will help him with his organizational skills, color-matching, hand-eye coordination, cognitive thinking.
Plus, it turns even the concept of knowing what goes where, into another individual activity. When the little squares of paper get worn out, he can make new ones.
Many thanks for the tip, Anonchick. This is great. Will do!
He does a lot of the things you mentioned, both right-brained and ADHD.
Right brained children tend to finish art creations and proudly show them to you, or get frustrated they are not turning out the way they want and throw them away.
Yes He starts a drawing, it's not coming out the way he wants, abandons it and tries it again on the next page. He goes through a lot of pages practicing drawing dinosaurs (his main interest - which prompted the suspicion about Asperger).
ADHD children might not even finish a drawing and leave it all behind to go on to the next thing, forgetting about it until they see it again. Not that I've noticed.
Right brained children would switch to other mediums while creating, like markers or paint, just to see how it is different. He does switch some, but often stays with the same medium.
ADHD children are more prone to stick to what feels right in their hands or what they are used to using. He does that more than switching.
Right brained children tend to want to show off what they are creating and may know exactly what it is they have made, but may not be able to explain it clearly. He shows it off, yes and he can clearly explain what he is doing. He is extremely verbal.
ADHD children may have no clear idea of what they have drawn and begin to talk about something else entirely and leave it behind, unwanted. Not that I've noticed.
When told to clean up, a right brained child may think putting the crayons on the desk is cleaning up and be done and off to their next activity.
Yes, he has that tendency. He doesn't like to do any non-preferred activity judiciously, he just blasts through it to be done with it (again, another Asperger trait, supposedly).
An ADHD child will put some of the crayons in the box, some of the paper back in the bin and then start to draw again, forgetting they are supposed to be cleaning up. He sometimes does that too. He's all over the GD place.
If he is indeed left brained then he may:
- be left handed, put out left foot first when putting on shoes, or left arm in jacket first (did not notice, but he does not draw or eat with left hand).
- think out of the box often (use a kitchen spoon to dig in the dirt)
(did not notice...in fact the psych thought that he was slightly rigid in his thinking, which again...sent her to Aspergers).
- miss important details (letters make words)
no...but then again, he is just 5 1/2 and he naturally still makes a lot of spelling mistakes which I do correct every time.
- have good intuition (knowing someone is sad) Yes (which points away from Aspergers; he's always picked on my most nuanced emotional states, facial expressions, etc. If he pays attention his intuition will detect it right away; but if his brains fly all over the wall in that moment, he obviously won't notice I am sad or whatever).
- have good instincts (good balance prevents him from falling). No. He is a clumsy child, constantly fidgets, constantly tips chair. (that would point both to ADHD and Aspergers).
- mentally connect things in unconventional ways that are confusing to others until the connecting
factor is discovered(new walmart commercial reminds him of a college graduation many years ago
connecting factor being the air horn blowing) did not notice that
- might be very frustrated doing puzzles because they are logical, yet building with Legos can be a joy
because they are big picture creations He likes both
- know the answer to a math problem, but not be able to explain how he got it
No.
But we are just now starting to work on additions and subtractions. However, my instincts right now say he won't be a math genius but he'll be able to stay on top of it with hard work. I was the same.
- be rather dramatic in reactions in ways that seem unreasonable because he doesn't see the close up issue but instead sees the long term problem Yes - a million times. He can be very emotional and sink into a meltdown when things don't go as he had expected them to.
So, I don't know what the conclusion would be.
He is probably a bit of every psych "affliction" we have around today.
Oh, well.
Almost everything you said above can be said about my 6 year old DD. I don't know if I am just not seeing something here, but your DS sounds like a normal kid doing normal kid things. I don't think there is anything to be concerned about.
Two things - I agree it is, to some extent developmental and....newsflash - your child is an individual person, not a mini you. While YOU may be the kind of person who has one crayon out at a time, he may never be (regardless of any ADHD or anything else). What you need to focus on is not whether he puts the crayons away during use (because really? - what difference does that make?) but does he clean up the mess he makes in the end. When he is done, he needs to clean up his mess. At some point, he may realize that if he puts the crayons away one at a time, he has no mess to clean up but that may be unimportant to him. The end result is what matters. You can't control his each and every habit and insist that he is the same as you but you can teach him to clean up his mess when he is done. Focus on the end result not on how he gets there.
Oh, I always do that - make him clean up the mess he's made.
However, he generally gets frustrated that he has to deal with a big mess after that, and starts whining about cleaning up. Don't get me wrong, he still does it THROUGH the whining, as I NEVER give in to his whining and I expect him to complete the clean up task come H or H water; but the very fact that he whines about it every time gets on my nerves.
I am now trying to explain to him that if he remembers to put something he's used or played with away as soon as he's done with it, there won't be any mess to clean after that.
It is onlyvery recently that he seems to have warmed up to this idea and has started to find it attractive, intellectually speaking.
Yet, it is not at all apparent that his working attention can follow the intellectual desire to have things this way.
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