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Julia, you are right, the stories are archetypal, and many were actually adult stories, not for children. In fact, a 'culture' for children and actual children's literature was not at all common until recently.
What concerns me is what happens to the child's sense of self through 'princess culture.' Relationships with men and non-parent figures are distorted too. I really view this 'princess culture' as a sort of ostracizing of the child, cultivating the child's sense of self away from context with normal human relationships and the security of family and peers.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. I don't see movies & books as being stronger than real life relationships and examples.
I am a preschool teacher and the majority of the 3 year old girls in my class love princesses. They have them on their backpacks, lunch boxes etc. To me it's just cute and I don't think it really affects their view of relationships. These same little girls can be rough and tumble and will not let the boys push them around. They also like to play with cars, dinosaurs etc. and some of the boys will play with the princesses or Barbies. If you want to worry about where they are getting their examples I can promise it is from the parents. At this age nothing is more influential than the Mom and Dad.
I don't think Disney movies will have much impact as far as the meaning or message behind them. I think most of the mushy stuff and storyline goes right over their heads. In my opinion, the thing that has the most impact is the visual image they see. For little girls, they see beautiful girls in pretty dresses and that's what captures their attention. For a little girl who does not fit the stereotypical Disney princess image, I believe it can have an impact on her, depending on what other influences are in her life. When I was a kid, it was more difficult because it was rare to see anybody who looked like me in a book or magazine or even on TV. I remember the only time we used to see commercials featuring black people or black products was when Soul Train was on. I never saw a book with black children in it, and dolls were few and far between. Things have greatly improved since then, and it's easier for a child now to look around and see a face that resembles theirs on a billboard or magazine and even as a princess. My dd and all my nieces have seen every Disney princess movie there is, and none of them suffer from any self esteem issues, but I think that's because we've gone out of our way to make sure that wasn't the only influence they had.
BTW, I think Ariel is a nice name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pumpkin5
I am a preschool teacher and the majority of the 3 year old girls in my class love princesses. They have them on their backpacks, lunch boxes etc. To me it's just cute and I don't think it really affects their view of relationships. These same little girls can be rough and tumble and will not let the boys push them around. They also like to play with cars, dinosaurs etc. and some of the boys will play with the princesses or Barbies. If you want to worry about where they are getting their examples I can promise it is from the parents. At this age nothing is more influential than the Mom and Dad.
What they said. I tried, sort of, to say that too, but they did it better. As I said earlier, by 6 or 7, the princess thing is about over.
I don't disagree, I think we are all somewhat correct - or maybe entirely correct in different instances.
The developing sense of self includes through princess culture the concept that every child can and could (and should?) be a 'princess' - solitary, removed, powerful/powerless... It's an unusual role model, IMO
Now, unlike in the past, children can readily fantasize about this (and have those fantasies endorsed by adults).
Prior types of fantasy roles have included leadership, heroism, courage, - you get my drift.
I'm not saying it's all bad I love individuality, self-esteem, and fantasy!
Julia, you are right, the stories are archetypal, and many were actually adult stories, not for children. In fact, a 'culture' for children and actual children's literature was not at all common until recently.
What concerns me is what happens to the child's sense of self through 'princess culture.' Relationships with men and non-parent figures are distorted too. I really view this 'princess culture' as a sort of ostracizing of the child, cultivating the child's sense of self away from context with normal human relationships and the security of family and peers.
I see what you are saying, and I agree to an extent. I avoid women who describe themselves as "diva," "b****," "princess," "queen," "spoiled," "brat," or make statements about what they expect or deserve using that kind of language. I don't mean in a joking way, and they're not all like this, I'm sure--but I have had some bad experiences with girls and women throughout my life who have that mentality. I said as much in the Toddlers & Tiaras thread. I also saw the princess mentality quite a bit on the Relationships board, the correlation between how a woman identified herself and how she treated other people.
Now, are Disney princesses to blame for this? I don't think so, no. I don't think that A always causes B, whether it's Cinderella or having an iPhone or participating in a pageant. But we can see women who are rude, mean, haughty people who are proud of being princesses. (Everyone else is "just jealous.") Obviously their parents did something to them to foster this attitude. But Disney princesses are more about pretty dresses and fancy things, in my opinion. Cinderella is kind and sweet, Belle is smart and good to her father, Sleeping Beauty is virtuous and sings to the animals ... they may be a little vapid but that's about it. They're all decent human beings in the Disney stories, unlike the wicked stepmother, town bully, evil witch, etc., who are clearly portrayed as the bad guys.
Julia, you are right, the stories are archetypal, and many were actually adult stories, not for children. In fact, a 'culture' for children and actual children's literature was not at all common until recently.
What concerns me is what happens to the child's sense of self through 'princess culture.' Relationships with men and non-parent figures are distorted too. I really view this 'princess culture' as a sort of ostracizing of the child, cultivating the child's sense of self away from context with normal human relationships and the security of family and peers.
I guess I just mostly see it as a big ol' money grab. My guess would be Disney produces it because it sells, whether because of nostalgia, a kind of weird societal assumption that Disney = wholesome, or nonstop marketing EVERYWHERE. I'm thinking an attempt to subvert the future of American Womanhood comes pretty far down the line.
I guess I just mostly see it as a big ol' money grab. My guess would be Disney produces it because it sells, whether because of nostalgia, a kind of weird societal assumption that Disney = wholesome, or nonstop marketing EVERYWHERE. I'm thinking an attempt to subvert the future of American Womanhood comes pretty far down the line.
Yes, I agree with you, but on a deeper a psycho-social level marketing works because it takes away something people feel they need, actually need, or it creates a need where none existed before.
I think to change the problems you have to go deep, to the underlying causes.
If we are afraid of anomie and narcissism and other societal problems we have to look at the way we all think and behave.
Just food for thought. This is a great topic, thanks, OP!
She was more influential to me than Disney because of my good luck to be young when she was alive and working.
I have no problem with 'publicity' if it really does a service & provides people with what they actually need. Without publicity I would know nothing of Princess Diana and her many charities, and she inspired me and many women, I think.
EDIT: 'publicity,' not 'marketing'
Last edited by SusqueHappy; 10-18-2011 at 11:37 AM..
Reason: clarification
In fact, just after posting the above I reflected on my own personal repsonse to the term 'princess' and for me it is
Princess Diana
She was more influential to me than Disney because of my good luck to be young when she was alive and working.
I have no problem with 'publicity' if it really does a service & provides people with what they actually need. Without publicity I would know nothing of Princess Diana and her many charities, and she inspired me and many women, I think.
EDIT: 'publicity,' not 'marketing'
I find it rather ironic that you don't think that the entire image of Princess Diana and who she was, what she believed, etc. was anything more than a carefully crafted marketing strategy. FWIW, Diana was not even a real princess, yet we all think she was. She is cast as the valiant force of good and normal against the stodgy and distant influence of the royal family. She was created to be that antithesis to soften the royal image and by all accounts the Diana we all fondly remember was very distant from whom Diana actually was. My whole point being, we see things the way we want to see them.
I have two daughters, so am a little familiar with Disney Princess culture. My oldest daughter had a phase of absolute infatuation with Disney Princesses in particular Ariel. She had dresses, gloves, tiaras, rings and shoes so she could dress up like them. Her bed was adorned with their faces and she had a large princess castle on her wall. In the midst of all this she still found time to play with trucks, dinosaurs, blocks and even have the occasional lightsaber duel with her brother.
The phase passed rather quickly and now she has chosen to be Spiderman for Halloween and her new bedset is also Spiderman. She has also decided that she would like to be either the Pink or Blue Ranger when she grows up and likes to fight bad guys while wearing a cape. Occasionally she still drifts into princess land and has her dolls over for tea (she will tell you they are her friends/babies and comprise her "court").
Other times she settles down to play with her doll house. She has a doll for each family member and occasionally substitutes when she wants to add other people. The mommy and daddy take care of the kids and drive them to the park to play. Mommy makes dinner when the grandparents are visiting and everyone plays a game together. She recreates with those dolls what she sees happening in our actual lives (we have no idea why "mommy" always ends up in the bathtub with a hair dryer, lol).
There is nothing wrong with a little fantasy and pretend whether that be Spiderman, princesses or Power Rangers. I doubt my daughter is going to have her moral values shaped by the Pink Ranger anymore than she is going to have them shaped by Ariel. However, she is going to be greatly influenced by what she sees happening around her with her family.
I think people who are afraid of the negative influence of pop culture and mass media are afraid because the example they set in their actual life is lacking and the example they set and the values they instill are not strong enough to overcome the influence. So, set a good example for kids and don't worry about the possibility of them being negatively influenced by a story to be an abandoned princess shacking up with seven midgets until a man comes and sweeps them away or selling their soul and giving up everything they know for a chance to be with a man they can't have.
I do absolutely understand as much about Princess Diana as anyone interested in her would know through media-
including her own publicity agencies who completed much good work due to her loving spirit. She had few modern western predecessors in this regard and for that at least I'm grateful for her leadership.
I've commented elsewhere on city-data about her failings and indulgences.
She was a real woman, and a real princess (undisputed by even the royal family), and her bravery and complexity is a better image than 'princess culture' for what a modern woman must deal with. In my opinion.
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I love individuality, self-esteem, and fantasy!
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