Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm talking about society in general. We've been working towards self sufficiency for a long time. Because of modern conveniences, we do not NEED our neighbors like we once did. I gave examples. Cottage industry and bartering with neighbors has gone by the wayside (replaced by sites like ebay and super stores like Walmart). We don't host a barn raising when we need a new barn now, we hire a contractor... Many of the things neighbors were needed to do for each other no longer exist in society. I don't trade a jar of jelly with my neighbor for a dozen eggs, I pick the jelly and the eggs at the grocery store and only see my neighbor when we happen to pass on the street. No matter how many block parties we throw, we cannot recapture what we had when we depended on our neighbors to help us survive.
The things we depend on society to provide are paid services now. We've lost the interdependency of bygone years. While you can fake it today, it is faking it because it's not necessary. You may find some of this still exists in farming communities but, for the most part, what neighbors used to be NEEDED to do for each other has been replaced by paid services.
We've also become more isolated because of the internet and television. We don't have to go out to the community theater for entertainment anymore. We turn on a screen at home. We don't even have to talk to each other any more...we can just post. All of us are here on this board because it serves some purpose for us. Something that has been lost that we are trying to replace.
Again, you're extrapolating from personal experience, and it's no more or less valid for you than for anyone else. "We" do not uniformly depend on others to provide services in exchange for goods or money. Some of us provide care for our own children. More and more of us are teaching our own children, growing food, doing our own home repairs and additions-- and barter has come back with a vengeance.
In every segment of society? Probably not. There are still-- and likely will always be-- people who prefer artificial to real, hired out to homemade, arm's length to embracing others. Most people combine both, and some lean the opposite track. You simply cannot assume the entire nation-- the entire world-- shares your antipathy toward human connection, or your affection for that metaphorical golden calf.
I'm trying to think of a way to tie this into the OP, and no matter how I try, I cannot.
Again, you're extrapolating from personal experience, and it's no more or less valid for you than for anyone else. "We" do not uniformly depend on others to provide services in exchange for goods or money. Some of us provide care for our own children. More and more of us are teaching our own children, growing food, doing our own home repairs and additions-- and barter has come back with a vengeance.
In every segment of society? Probably not. There are still-- and likely will always be-- people who prefer artificial to real, hired out to homemade, arm's length to embracing others. Most people combine both, and some lean the opposite track. You simply cannot assume the entire nation-- the entire world-- shares your antipathy toward human connection, or your affection for that metaphorical golden calf.
I'm trying to think of a way to tie this into the OP, and no matter how I try, I cannot.
Yes, but the difference is that today it is by choice. So it's a feigned interdependency. In the past, it was a real interdependency. There is a difference between choosing something and needing it. If you choose it, you can unchoose it at any time. If it's needed, you don't have a choice. Necessity forces your hand. THIS is what my dd would have benefitted from. Choosing to grow our own vegetables and make things at home and homeschooling would not have helped her. NEEDING to grow our own vegetables and NEEDING to make things to barter with would have. Without that NEED for others and the services they provide, it's difficult for them to learn to give. They can be made to go through the motions but they don't learn the benefit of giving. That lesson is learned through true INTERDEPENDENCY. I don't care how many gardens you grow, you can't create that in this society. Everything that neighbors were once NEEDED for is now available on the shelves of stores or from contractors. You can pretend things haven't changed but you're just preetending. What my dd needs is to find herself in a situation where she, truely, needs the help of others. So far, that hasn't happened. So she does not form long term relationships.
As to tying this into the OP, I think part of our problem is that we don't need each other anymore. Each family is an island unto itself, or can be if it wants to be. Knowing we don't need others and not needing them is isolating. I think the my child can do no wrong mentality stems from an us and them mentality. There's our families and then there's others. We stand by our own. Maybe it's because we do live in isolation these days. Maybe it's because our children's behavior, in public, is now the only proof of our good parenting that others see. I can tell you that people don't see what we've been doing with dd #1. They only see her behavior and it reflects badly upon us (how many times has someone dragged her issues into a discussion of parenting here??? as if they were due to bad parenting???).
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-23-2011 at 05:01 PM..
With kids in school 7 hours/day, how much time do you really think people are "lavishing" on them? What makes you think kids are "isolated" with their mothers? The moms of preschoolers that I know belong to playgroups, clubs, babysitting co-ops. We really help each other out, and get out of the house together a lot. We're far from isolated. And what makes you think any of this contributes to how kids behave, and whether or not their parents realize it?
Lots and for lots of reasons. First, from age 5 to age 18 children spend about 25% of their waking time in school so parents have the other 75%, potentially, available. With less work to do at home and fewer children per household, it is very likely that parents have time to lavish on their kids even if they do go to school 7 hours a day. The average school aged child has 5100 waking hours per year (assuming they sleep 10 hours a night which is a lot). They spend about 1260 hours in school. There's lots of time left over.
I think kids are isolated with their mothers because that is what I see around me. Why do you think they have mommy and me classes and play groups? Because we know we're isolated but they don't change that we are isolated. They are just bandaids. We leave our homes, participate in a contrived group and then go back to our homes. Most likely, our kids won't even remember the kids they went on play dates with in 2 years. Play dates are just a temporary fix. If you go back to the village, kids grew up with a play group and were raised in a group setting. Small towns come closest to this but even there we're transient enough that we leave groups behind.
Anyway, I think much of this plays into the my child can do no wrong syndrome. We don't know our neighbors like we used to. We don't grow roots like we used to. We don't need our neighbors like we used to. We have our guard up. We protect ourselves. I protect myself even here. I will never reveal the true nature of dd's problems again because I'd be attacked. Someone would tell me what a bad mother I am. It's happened before and I've had to ask the mods to delete the posts. I've learned that in today's society, you can't ask for help with your kids because you will be blamed for their issues. I can see why people have not my child syndrome. I don't but I will never again ask for help with my kids. I learned my lesson. I'm on my own.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 10-23-2011 at 05:46 PM..
Lots and for lots of reasons. First, from age 5 to age 18 children spend about 25% of their waking time in school so parents have the other 75%, potentially, available. With less work to do at home and fewer children per household, it is very likely that parents have time to lavish on their kids even if they do go to school 7 hours a day. The average school aged child has 5100 waking hours per year (assuming they sleep 10 hours a night which is a lot). They spend about 1260 hours in school. There's lots of time left over.
I think kids are isolated with their mothers because that is what I see around me. Why do you think they have mommy and me classes and play groups? Because we know we're isolated but they don't change that we are isolated. They are just bandaids. We leave our homes, participate in a contrived group and then go back to our homes. Most likely, our kids won't even remember the kids they went on play dates with in 2 years. Play dates are just a temporary fix. If you go back to the village, kids grew up with a play group and were raised in a group setting. Small towns come closest to this but even there we're transient enough that we leave groups behind.
Anyway, I think much of this plays into the my child can do no wrong syndrome. We don't know our neighbors like we used to. We don't grow roots like we used to. We don't need our neighbors like we used to. We have our guard up. We protect ourselves. I protect myself even here. I will never reveal the true nature of dd's problems because I'd be attacked. Someone would tell me what a bad mother I am. It's happened before and I've had to ask the mods to delete the posts. I've learned that in today's society, you can't ask for help with your kids because you will be blamed for their issues. I can see why people have not my child syndrome.
1) After school, I have approximately 4 hours with my kids. Homework and dinner need to get done in that time. I'd hardly consider watching them play for half an hour, watching TV with them for half an hour, and reading a bed time story to them "lavishing" time. Putting your time measurement in "hours/year" makes it sound like a big number, but it really isn't.
2) The fact that people go to mommy and me classes, and "contrived" groups means we are NOT isolated. Not at all! some people make life long friends in these "contrived groups." and so what if we go back to our family and home? Some people value their family above all else.
3) this is not related to the OP, so I'm not going to indulge you going off topic for your own reasons anymore.
1) After school, I have approximately 4 hours with my kids. Homework and dinner need to get done in that time. I'd hardly consider watching them play for half an hour, watching TV with them for half an hour, and reading a bed time story to them "lavishing" time. Putting your time measurement in "hours/year" makes it sound like a big number, but it really isn't.
2) The fact that people go to mommy and me classes, and "contrived" groups means we are NOT isolated. Not at all! some people make life long friends in these "contrived groups." and so what if we go back to our family and home? Some people value their family above all else.
3) this is not related to the OP, so I'm not going to indulge you going off topic for your own reasons anymore.
If we weren't isolated, we wouldn't need mommy and me classes and play dates. We need them because we are isolated. I think the isolation breeds an us and them mentality that makes us protective of ours. So, yes, this is related to the OP. It's great if you make long time freinds at these classes but that's not the norm or the purpose of the classes. They are created to fill a void. A void left by changes in society.
Time is time. I didn't create time with my math. Try adding up all you have at home. Most likely, you'll be surprised. Seriously, 28% of all days fall on the weekend when most parents have all day home. I don't think most people realize just how many hours they have. I find it funny that people think a 40 hour work week is so LONG yet half again that much time (what most full time working parents have) seems like a little time. Seriously, try adding up the hours. It may change your perspective.
u r so right. it is destroying our school system. we on a regular basis find it convenient to flog teachers rather than address the issue of discipline that is making it impossible for our kids to learn.
it goes on, when they get older the cops get involved and then we blame the cops. we didnt like the way our grandparents did things so we did our own version. we have failed. largest prison population on earth. then we blame the court system. give me a break.
u r so right. it is destroying our school system. we on a regular basis find it convenient to flog teachers rather than address the issue of discipline that is making it impossible for our kids to learn.
it goes on, when they get older the cops get involved and then we blame the cops. we didnt like the way our grandparents did things so we did our own version. we have failed. largest prison population on earth. then we blame the court system. give me a break.
I agree on discipline issues making it impossible to learn. I teach and it's very hard when you are dealing with, constant, issues and can't even call home because the parents will blame you. Every child in the classroom gets cheated when that happens. Sadly, I think the us vs. them mentality of society today makes school "them".
It will be interesting to see what our kids do. I'm sure they'll think we screwed up. Ironically, I don't think my parents screwed up. It's just illegal to raise kids the way they did today. My parents were into spare the rod and spoil the child but we learned fast to toe the line.
If we weren't isolated, we wouldn't need mommy and me classes and play dates. We need them because we are isolated. I think the isolation breeds an us and them mentality that makes us protective of ours. So, yes, this is related to the OP. It's great if you make long time freinds at these classes but that's not the norm or the purpose of the classes. They are created to fill a void. A void left by changes in society.
I would argue that connecting and making friends is THE purpose of Mommy and Me type classes, particularly for mothers with children under the age of two. Just because you did not make lasting friendships this way does not mean it's uncommon. IME, it's very common.
Last edited by Dorthy; 10-23-2011 at 06:14 PM..
Reason: spelling
I agree on discipline issues making it impossible to learn. I teach and it's very hard when you are dealing with, constant, issues and can't even call home because the parents will blame you. Every child in the classroom gets cheated when that happens. Sadly, I think the us vs. them mentality of society today makes school "them".
It will be interesting to see what our kids do. I'm sure they'll think we screwed up. Ironically, I don't think my parents screwed up. It's just illegal to raise kids the way they did today. My parents were into spare the rod and spoil the child but we learned fast to toe the line.
Ahh, so I take it you've never worked in an inner city school. Having experience with a very tough high school in the even more flawed Milwaukee Public School system, I can assure you that the VAST majority of issues stemmed from kids with incredibly uninvolved parents. Having a parent who actually gave a crap what their kid was doing would've been a blessing.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
