Since when did the world begin to revolve around children?
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This is a great forum topic. My husband and I are expecting our first later this month. After reading the first couple pages on here, I stopped and asked him some questions of my own to make sure we stand close to the same answers. We pretty much do, which I kind of already knew, but it just made me feel more at peace. Yes, things change, but it never hurts to start with guidelines.
We both plan on sending our child(ren) to private schools, just as we went to private schools. He went to both private and public. The reason we feel so strongly about this is because we both in a way hated it yet had an unimaginable amount of pride in it. Yes, we'll have to sacrifice financially, isn't that what parents do? We were forced to wear uniforms and tuck our shirts in, we were expected to use manners at all times, the schools were not afraid to push our potential and creativity and most importantly, they graded us for what something was ACTUALLY worth. They didn’t stroke our ego’s through grades. These are just a few reasons. Yes, I did find myself in the 6 am detention a couple times – but I deserved it and learned from it (black jeans didn’t disguise well as black dress pants, and sleeping in religion class.) However, at the same time I have to admit, those schools whooped us into shape and my parents did the same thing when we’d get home. Homework was first, chores second, dinner, then playtime. And if homework took you until 11pm, so be it. (Obviously you ate while working.)
There were four kids in my family. We never got cell phones, we all passed one beat up 84’ chevette down to the next kid, and when my parents couldn’t afford to pay the tuition anymore, my sister and I were forced to pay it on our own if we decided to continue going…which we did. Every week we marched up to the principal’s office and gave a predetermined amount which we made with our part time jobs. My brothers decided to go to public schools…let’s not forget to mention they’re both unemployed, unmarried and living with friends or family at the moment and almost hitting the age of 30.
I know that there will be a million challenges coming up in the next couple of years (or 18) with our decisions as new parents. I know that I will be a “bad mom” when I say “no” to things. Big freaking deal. That’s how my husband and I learned, that’s how our child will learn. Doesn't mean we don't love him or them unconditionally.
There are 3 sayings that I'll never forget from growing up that I used to think were mean, but now they make perfect sense:
1.) "If there isn't blood and guts, don't call me at work." ~ My mother, who finally got sick of us kids calling her if we forgot a book or report at home.
2.) "You don't NEED that. You NEED air, water & food." ~ Can't remember who, but I remembered it. But it puts material things back into focus.
3.) "If I find anything on the floor it's going in the trash." ~Dad's response if we didn't clean our rooms. He actually did this a couple times!!
There are some great points in the previous posts that I plan on taking to heart. Thank you for your ideas and reminders.
From my own experience it's from parents believing that their children's only responsibility is doing well in school and being involved in numerous activities - ya know, building an impressive Kid Resume for college. Period. Nothing else. Parents base so much of their own self worth on how successful their children are as children and so the home is child-centered, child-focused. The focus is on their kids' outward success only.
This is spot on. My husband was raised this way. He did have a part-time job in school, but his mommy raised him to believe his ONLY job in life was to get good grades and make money. I love my husband dearly, but he is 32 and cannot do ANYTHING around the house. My dad ends up doing our home repairs. Any time anything goes wrong with our house, my husband's first thought is to call up my dad. My husband, in general, always wants either the advice of my dad or his dad when making any kind of decision. I would be lying if I said I'm not disappointed in my husband. There's that small part of him I see as wimpy and unmanly. Every year that goes by it's less and less cute that my husband can't do basic tasks. Also, it has affected our finances. A large part of my husband's identity is wrapped up in praise for doing a good job, going back to mommy only caring about him getting good grades. He constantly seeks approval from his employer instead of money. He values positive feedback more than salary raises.
This is the one topic that makes me consider my stance on being childfree, just because I know I'd never be that type of parent. I would not let my children being honors students or having a high IQ (almost inevitable since both dh and our dads are geniuses) be an excuse to exist on their duff. I think that's where MIL went wrong, thinking dh's smarts would be enough. No child of mine would go out into the world not knowing how to cook, sew on a button, kill a yellow jacket nest, do laundry, ect. I'm not afraid to let kids play outside. Kids should be outside and active as much as possible. And I don't care what types of toys their friends do or don't have. But I'm also not the type who would freak out at the idea of a child watching some television or having a bowl of junk cereal, because I think that has a tendency to backfire.
I think in all those examples you mentioned it is certainly not the norm. While there are some like that, it just don't think it is as common as some people seem to think or want people to think. Most people I know raise their kids with as good of manners as people did 30 years ago and while the age that they are getting cell phones has certainly gotten lower (and I don't blame them, my son will be getting one when he is about 12 too - not because he wants one though but so that I can keep track of him), I don't know anyone who has given their 11 or younger kids a phone. Although I couldn't say I blame them.
My big question is why do people stress about how other people raise their kids. Who cares if someone else buys their 11 year old a cell phone? Who cares if someone else doesn't make their kids do chores? Who cares if someone elses kids has bad manners if mine don't? I mean really, if the kids aren't harming anyone else with their cell phone, their bad manners, or their messy room, why worry about it?
Jenn, i think you missed the point, we should all care, because by people not teaching their kids plain, simple manners and letting their kids go without teaching them the basics has an impact on everyone when those kids grow up into adults that can't do anything for themselves and have no respect for anyone. I agree, i don't see why a 12 yr old needs a cell phone, when my sons were 12 i pretty much knew where they were. I didn't need a cell phone to "keep track of them".
Seriously. When I grew up, we were not allowed to watch TV all day, had to go outside and play, do our homework, help out with the chores around the house, and generally devise our own entertainment.
Now, talking to the parents of other kids, it's like their children completely and utterly call the shots. Here are some of the conversations I've had in the past week.
1. "My 11-year-old wants a new mobile phone." Seriously. Given that an 11-year-old should never be anywhere where there isn't a supervising adult within eyeshot/earshot, what on earth does an 11-year-old need a mobile phone for? Maybe when he/she is fifteen. Definitely when he/she is sixteen. But eleven?
2. "I just clean the house myself. It's just a lot easier than making them do it." Seriously. Do you have the word "sucker" tattooed on your face? Kids are smart. And you mean to tell me that you really fell for that passive-aggressive "I don't know how the vacuum cleaner works/I don't know where all the clean dishes go" act?
Has it ever occurred to you that if your kid doesn't know how to load the dishwasher, put away clean dishes, vacuum a floor, make up a bed, clean a bathroom, and put away toys by the time he/she is eight or nine, then you are a failure as a parent? It doesn't matter that they don't do it as well as you do. It matters that they know how to do it. By taking the load on yourself, you're basically making yourself a servant to your child, and raising a helpless brat in the process. So when he/she goes off to college, they will be utterly helpless, and run back to the cocoon they know as home.
3. "I don't believe in forcing my kids to learn all those manners. It teaches them subservience." Seriously. Good manners isn't some arcane code of behavior designed to turn your child into an obedient robot. It's not about knowing the difference between a fish fork and a salad fork. It's about knowing how to be conscientious to the needs of others. Such as not eating before everybody is seated. Or offering your seat on a bus to an elderly person. Because the main point of manners is that It's Not All About You. And the sooner your kids learn that, the more well adjusted they'll be.
4. "I wish my kid weren't such a smart-ass all the time." Seriously. Guess what? The world wishes your kid wasn't a smart-ass all the time. That includes his future professors, his future bosses, his future clients, his future spouse, his future friends, and his future colleagues. Silence implies consent. So, basically, when you allow your kids to talk to each other and adults like the raging brats on Disney Channel or Nickelodeon, what you're really doing is encouraging your child to grow up into a socially retarded adult, an almost sure-fire failure at whatever he tries to do--until he finally learns that people deserve respect, not the ersatz scorn that screenwriters term 'dialog' in every episode of The Sweet Life of Zack and Cody. A son's friend smarted off to me in the car when I was taking him to the pool. I simply turned around and dropped him back off at his parent's. Evidently, they allow their brat to talk to them in anyway he sees fit. It's a good idea in theory, but a terrible one in actual practice.
What's more, egalitarianism is a great idea in the voting booth, but it's a really crappy idea in just about every other institution known to man. Learning the simple phrases "Yes, Sir," "No, Sir," "Yes, Ma'am," "No, Ma'am," "Please," "Thank You," "You're Welcome," and "Excuse Me" doesn't make you a butt kisser. What it means is that you respect their age, experience, and rank, and are willing to listen to them. It means that they don't have to explain every single request down to the last comma. It means that your child is willing to join the human race, as opposed to just being in it for himself.
I am so glad you brought this up, and did it so eloquently! To answer the question, since when did the world revolve around children?, I have absolutely NO clue, but some parents have certainly raised a number of over-indulged, spoiled, rude young people who, as they get older continue to think the world should/needs to/must certainly revolve around them -- that the rest of the world has to deal with. To top it all off, these youngsters are most unhappy adults.
The eldest of three girls, our parents were strict -- and could be abusive, both physically and emotionally. What has amazed me is how one sister has completely gone the other extreme, and she is a former special ed teacher, who can tell you how children need structure, discipline, rules, and love and attention. Yet, she has three children that I would like to strangle before they become the death of my sister and her husband.
The 22-year-old son moved back home, with a college degree in film-making, and sleeps-in until 10:00 a.m., maintains his room as if he were 3, and contributes nothing to the household. He doesn't have chores -- none of the children ever have -- and his mother still does everything, including the laundry for the family, the cooking, grocery-shopping, etc.
The 18-year-old son just graduated from HS, and has been accepted at a college about 6 hours away from home. He works part-time in the evenings at a restaurant, but thinks because he is 18 and works, he doesn't have to do anything asked of him. He is often insolent and rude.
The youngest is a newly-turned 15 year old daughter (the one child the mother 'campaigned' hard for, to round-out the family) and she thinks she is Paris Hilton. When her parents recently went out-of-town, she wanted to be left at home and not have to stay with relatives (me) because her parents were scheduled to be gone the week of her birthday.
The boys have nice cars, and gas cards. They only have to post a schedule on the refrigerator door as to work or school hours, and give the parents a general idea of where they are, and with whom, and when they may be home. They have NO set chores, but are asked to bring their laundry downstairs to the laundry room, and to carry the basket(s) upstairs when the laundry has been done, and is in the basket to go back upstairs. The boys will come in, and complain if there is no milk in the refigerator, and the youngest one will point out that her Pop*Tarts have gone 'stale.'
I love the three children because they are, after all my niece and nephews, but I want to slap them silly, and shake the two parents until their heads rattle. I have told them I hope they are prepared to have these three boors live with them the rest of their natural lives. The boys are poorly-equipped to support themselves, and who in his right mind would even be interested in having to support The Princess as a wife?
Even my own daughter, after being around them all for a brief while, will ask, "Mom, WTF?" She gets reprimanded for her language, but she has a most valid point.
Even my own daughter, after being around them all for a brief while, will ask, "Mom, WTF?" She gets reprimanded for her language, but she has a most valid point.
Yup, I see it too. I teach K and the kids don't say please, thank you and don't cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze. Just simple things like that. I don't know if that is not important anymore, but it sure is to me! It is easier to let kids to all the thinking and decision making. Everyone wants to take the easy way. But raising great kids was never "easy".
BTW, great post I am glad I am not the only one that sees this.
My 12 year old doesn't have her own phone and has very limited time on the computer because there is so much more to do in life! What a waste to spend it in virtual-land! My kids only get big gifts on Christmas or b-days but they have to take care of these items or there won't be a next time. Another important virtue, taking care of things, rather than thinking "oh Mom and Dad will just get me another one" no I won't! First time it's a gift if they ruin it or lose it they can save the money to get their own!
My niece (13 in two weeks) has long had a cell phone to ease her mother's worries. Unfortunately, the 12 y.o. has dropped 2 or 3 phones in water so far! I told my sister that if I were her, I would buy the biggest, oldest, ugliest cell phone I could for her! I believe she did something quite close to that (which is probably worse then no cell phone at all for a 13 y.o.).
Seriously. When I grew up, we were not allowed to watch TV all day, had to go outside and play, do our homework, help out with the chores around the house, and generally devise our own entertainment.
Now, talking to the parents of other kids, it's like their children completely and utterly call the shots. Here are some of the conversations I've had in the past week.
1. "My 11-year-old wants a new mobile phone." Seriously. Given that an 11-year-old should never be anywhere where there isn't a supervising adult within eyeshot/earshot, what on earth does an 11-year-old need a mobile phone for? Maybe when he/she is fifteen. Definitely when he/she is sixteen. But eleven?
2. "I just clean the house myself. It's just a lot easier than making them do it." Seriously. Do you have the word "sucker" tattooed on your face? Kids are smart. And you mean to tell me that you really fell for that passive-aggressive "I don't know how the vacuum cleaner works/I don't know where all the clean dishes go" act?
Has it ever occurred to you that if your kid doesn't know how to load the dishwasher, put away clean dishes, vacuum a floor, make up a bed, clean a bathroom, and put away toys by the time he/she is eight or nine, then you are a failure as a parent? It doesn't matter that they don't do it as well as you do. It matters that they know how to do it. By taking the load on yourself, you're basically making yourself a servant to your child, and raising a helpless brat in the process. So when he/she goes off to college, they will be utterly helpless, and run back to the cocoon they know as home.
3. "I don't believe in forcing my kids to learn all those manners. It teaches them subservience." Seriously. Good manners isn't some arcane code of behavior designed to turn your child into an obedient robot. It's not about knowing the difference between a fish fork and a salad fork. It's about knowing how to be conscientious to the needs of others. Such as not eating before everybody is seated. Or offering your seat on a bus to an elderly person. Because the main point of manners is that It's Not All About You. And the sooner your kids learn that, the more well adjusted they'll be.
4. "I wish my kid weren't such a smart-ass all the time." Seriously. Guess what? The world wishes your kid wasn't a smart-ass all the time. That includes his future professors, his future bosses, his future clients, his future spouse, his future friends, and his future colleagues. Silence implies consent. So, basically, when you allow your kids to talk to each other and adults like the raging brats on Disney Channel or Nickelodeon, what you're really doing is encouraging your child to grow up into a socially retarded adult, an almost sure-fire failure at whatever he tries to do--until he finally learns that people deserve respect, not the ersatz scorn that screenwriters term 'dialog' in every episode of The Sweet Life of Zack and Cody. A son's friend smarted off to me in the car when I was taking him to the pool. I simply turned around and dropped him back off at his parent's. Evidently, they allow their brat to talk to them in anyway he sees fit. It's a good idea in theory, but a terrible one in actual practice.
What's more, egalitarianism is a great idea in the voting booth, but it's a really crappy idea in just about every other institution known to man. Learning the simple phrases "Yes, Sir," "No, Sir," "Yes, Ma'am," "No, Ma'am," "Please," "Thank You," "You're Welcome," and "Excuse Me" doesn't make you a butt kisser. What it means is that you respect their age, experience, and rank, and are willing to listen to them. It means that they don't have to explain every single request down to the last comma. It means that your child is willing to join the human race, as opposed to just being in it for himself.
VERY GOOD POST!
I have a theory about this phenomena. I think some kids today are being raised by children that were spoiled by THEIR partents who were NOT spoiled. The grandparents had little and so gave a lot to their kids out of love, but somewhat spoiled them. Now those kids have kids and think having no rules or expectations is "love". Which, when you are 8 months, old it is! A little baby or toddler is really not expected to do much. Problem is after they turn 3 they need to be civilized and some parents think it's "mean", also it is a lot of effort to enforce rules.
Add to this the parents egos have been inflated by being spoiled themselves and they take it as a personal affront if anyone judges their "gifted" (ever notice, these brats always have that label?) child's bratty behavior. By the time that little Stewart is a teenager, the parent realizes what a mess they have produced but have absolutely no way to demand better behavior, so to avoid war 24/7 they keep caving in and letting a now horribly spoiled, unnatractive and unproductive Stewart do what he wants.
Problem with this is that there are plenty of parents out there that do "civilize" their 3 year olds and continue to help the child mature and learn proper behavior throughout their young lives. The "spoiled" ones may make it through college (after 6 or 7 years and their parents footing the bill) but once they have to compete in the real world they are shocked at how "unfair" it is. At that point they either have to get a grip and assess what they need to do to compete or move into their mammy's basement and be a dependent forever.
Bottom line is you aren't doing your kids a favor. You aren't doing the world a favor. If you have kids, treat them as kids and teach them the lessons that have been taught for 100's of years. Try to keep your ego out of it. There are very few really "gifted" kids out there. And even if your child happens to test out high on an IQ test at 4 years old, just raise him to be a decent, kind person. If he is brilliant, it will come through without you telling him all the time.
Seriously. When I grew up, we were not allowed to watch TV all day, had to go outside and play, do our homework, help out with the chores around the house, and generally devise our own entertainment.
Now, talking to the parents of other kids, it's like their children completely and utterly call the shots. Here are some of the conversations I've had in the past week.
I do agree that the coming generation has been turned into a "Me First" generation.
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1. "My 11-year-old wants a new mobile phone."
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Seriously. Given that an 11-year-old should never be anywhere where there isn't a supervising adult within eyeshot/earshot, what on earth does an 11-year-old need a mobile phone for? Maybe when he/she is fifteen. Definitely when he/she is sixteen. But eleven?
I had to wait until I was able to buy my own phone and put it under my own name. Luckily where I live there is a phone company that lets you have service at age 16 since there are no contracts. I paid my own phone bill and that is the only reason I was able to have a cell phone. You'd better believe that I am going to do the same thing for my children.
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2. "I just clean the house myself. It's just a lot easier than making them do it.
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" Seriously. Do you have the word "sucker" tattooed on your face? Kids are smart. And you mean to tell me that you really fell for that passive-aggressive "I don't know how the vacuum cleaner works/I don't know where all the clean dishes go" act?
My son is only 22 months old and he is already cleaning up after himself. When he knows it is bed time, he puts all of his toys in their containers and comes to mommy and daddy for his night night hugs and then is ready to go to bed (without crying), if my son can do this at 22 months he will definitely be responsible for cleaning up in later years.
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Has it ever occurred to you that if your kid doesn't know how to load the dishwasher, put away clean dishes, vacuum a floor, make up a bed, clean a bathroom, and put away toys by the time he/she is eight or nine, then you are a failure as a parent? It doesn't matter that they don't do it as well as you do. It matters that they know how to do it. By taking the load on yourself, you're basically making yourself a servant to your child, and raising a helpless brat in the process. So when he/she goes off to college, they will be utterly helpless, and run back to the cocoon they know as home.
My parents raised me to do everything for myself. I will also do the same for my children. My son is already quite self sufficient.
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3. "I don't believe in forcing my kids to learn all those manners. It teaches them subservience."
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Seriously. Good manners isn't some arcane code of behavior designed to turn your child into an obedient robot. It's not about knowing the difference between a fish fork and a salad fork. It's about knowing how to be conscientious to the needs of others. Such as not eating before everybody is seated. Or offering your seat on a bus to an elderly person. Because the main point of manners is that It's Not All About You. And the sooner your kids learn that, the more well adjusted they'll be.
Plain and simple, if my children do not mind their manners and find it impossible to behave in public, they will not go in public. We will spend our time at home being "so boring" until they can behave properly around other people. (Luckily for me, my son is very well behaved in public so far)
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4. "I wish my kid weren't such a smart-ass all the time." Seriously. Guess what? The world wishes your kid wasn't a smart-ass all the time. That includes his future professors, his future bosses, his future clients, his future spouse, his future friends, and his future colleagues. Silence implies consent. So, basically, when you allow your kids to talk to each other and adults like the raging brats on Disney Channel or Nickelodeon, what you're really doing is encouraging your child to grow up into a socially retarded adult, an almost sure-fire failure at whatever he tries to do--until he finally learns that people deserve respect, not the ersatz scorn that screenwriters term 'dialog' in every episode of The Sweet Life of Zack and Cody. A son's friend smarted off to me in the car when I was taking him to the pool. I simply turned around and dropped him back off at his parent's. Evidently, they allow their brat to talk to them in anyway he sees fit. It's a good idea in theory, but a terrible one in actual practice.
I agree, there is nothing more horrible than a child whose parents let them sass them. I was raised with respect for my elders and it always horrified me to see the way that many of my friends treated their parents and even adults whom they didn't even know. I had one friend who got into fist fights with her mother on a pretty regular basis as a teenager. I still to this day would NEVER consider even raising a hand or my voice to my mother. If anyone in this world deserves my respect, it would certainly be my parents! We must teach our children respect!
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