Toll the highways? (Philadelphia, York, Stroudsburg: appointed, promotional, live in)

[pman]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

You threw the race card, not me.

You're correct, PA isn't MD. Toll the roads you mentioned and any current slow pull out of the recession of 1980 will be stillborn.

yes, I threw it because it seems that is what is driving your thinking. you should realize that people do see it that way (inner city blacks on welfare) and that people see it that way (they don't want to pay for inner city services because of race). it's a current, I can't know whether you think that way or not but I am suspicious because you are willing to make exceptions for rural residents but not urban ones.

your second point is simply false. tolling roads is irrelevant to economic growth. the recession of 1980? the I80 corridor hasn't recovered from the great depression despite I80 not being a toll road. the Philadelphia area's major east west road is a toll road nad it's doing much better. the fact is you and people up there simply don't want to pay for what you use and have so little confidence in the area that you think that anything will make companies move. look at a map, Pennsylvania is becoming america's warehouse because of its keystone location not because 80 is a free road.

[North Beach Person]

Still with the race card. I'm out.

[fisheye]

pman,

Do you have a vested interest in tolling our roads? Do you work for PA? I have to ask because you keep going back to tolling I-80.

Most of us in the northern tier will fight you on tolling. We paid for this service every time we fill our vehicles. If you cannot use the funds provided efficiently; you don't deserve more.

You also talk about NJ's poor roads. Yes they have some deficient roads - but they have the means to easily correct their deficiencies. Their fuel prices/taxes are some of the lowest. I work with a woman from NJ and she is paying about $.30/galleon less than I pay. With the number of vehicles on their roads; slight increases would easily correct their road problem. Their night crews have always been very efficient paving their highways; even with more traffic than we have in PA.

[pman]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Still with the race card. I'm out.

guess it hits too close to home. you were also wrong about septa not raising fares, haven't proven that septa is stealing money, claimed, baselessly, that counties pay for themselves.

[pman]

Originally Posted by fisheye

pman,

Do you have a vested interest in tolling our roads? Do you work for PA? I have to ask because you keep going back to tolling I-80.

Most of us in the northern tier will fight you on tolling. We paid for this service every time we fill our vehicles. If you cannot use the funds provided efficiently; you don't deserve more.

You also talk about NJ's poor roads. Yes they have some deficient roads - but they have the means to easily correct their deficiencies. Their fuel prices/taxes are some of the lowest. I work with a woman from NJ and she is paying about $.30/galleon less than I pay. With the number of vehicles on their roads; slight increases would easily correct their road problem. Their night crews have always been very efficient paving their highways; even with more traffic than we have in PA.

no but you have a vested interest in keeping tolls artificially low don't you? NJ has been plugging the gap with debt to keep fuel taxes artificially low (all their other taxes are among the highest). you talk about NJ being efficient but the numbers tell a different story. night paving is undoubtedly more convenient but probably involves higher pay. NJ spends more and gets less. PA is in the middle of the pack for spending but relatively poor in total quality. what bugs me is when only "other people" should pay their fare share as north beach was preaching. tolling isn't the only way to raise money but it's probably the fairest since users bear the cost of the road.
I understand your point which is different than coalman's determination not to pay his fair share

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by pman

no but you have a vested interest in keeping tolls artificially low don't you? NJ has been plugging the gap with debt to keep fuel taxes artificially low (all their other taxes are among the highest). you talk about NJ being efficient but the numbers tell a different story. night paving is undoubtedly more convenient but probably involves higher pay. NJ spends more and gets less. PA is in the middle of the pack for spending but relatively poor in total quality. what bugs me is when only "other people" should pay their fare share as north beach was preaching. tolling isn't the only way to raise money but it's probably the fairest since users bear the cost of the road.
I understand your point which is different than coalman's determination not to pay his fair share

NJ's night paving might involve higher pay - but they get the job done and move on. I have watched NJ lay more asphalt in one night than we have laid in months. So, you tell me; which is cost effective?

No; I do not have a vested interest in I-80. Other than occasionally taking a six mile trip on the road. I am a retired truck driver. I do work for one company that is on around the corner from me - but has nothing to with my old profession.

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by pman

tolling 80, absolutely. the majority of traffic is through anyway.

You keep saying that. Have you ever driven on I-80? I'd estimate that 90 percent of the cars on the road are registered in Pennsylvania.

Originally Posted by pman

most likely you like rural whites but don't want to help blacks in the city.

Nice. I hope you don't hurt yourself when you land after jumping to that inane conclusion.

I pay plenty of taxes and a lot of them go to support welfare regions along 80

Another baseless conclusion.

I love how roads can be improved through efficiency but transit, well those people need to pay more, God forbid a transit agency be more efficient.

Your beloved SEPTA is one of the most inefficient organizations on the planet. Next?

[pman]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

You keep saying that. Have you ever driven on I-80? I'd estimate that 90 percent of the cars on the road are registered in Pennsylvania.

it's the major east-west thoroughfare between NY and Chicago. if locals use it, they should also pay.

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Nice. I hope you don't hurt yourself when you land after jumping to that inane conclusion.

nope. I suppose this is where we pretend it's not true.

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Another baseless conclusion.

another baseless statement. I've shown over and over that the two major urban areas contribute more than they get back. people like you cling to the belief taht this isn't true like it's their job. God forbid you admit it. NEPA has the highest proportion of people receiving SNAP in the state. why? because the old coal regions have little economic activity. open your eyes.

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Your beloved SEPTA is one of the most inefficient organizations on the planet. Next?

Another baseless conclusion. you've provided no facts whatsoever and no logic. try again.

SEPTA managed to complete the 33rd and Dauphin Bus Loop renovation several months ahead of schedule and with enough funding left over from the competitive grant that funded the project to pay for two additional bus loop overhauls - three birds, one stone.

http://planphilly.com/articles/2013/...vated-bus-loop
SEPTA isn't perfect but a lot of its troubles can be attributed to state and federal law. state law governs the board, stacked with cronies, and federal rules make everything more expensive whether it be transit or road construction. SEPTA has been pretty good with managing what money it does have and completing projects on time. it hasn't always been this way, they used to be pretty worthless but they're much better run now. they're doing exactly what fisheye wants, doing more with less but at some point, they need more capital funding. NJ transit has a capital budget four times as large.

[pman]

Originally Posted by fisheye

NJ's night paving might involve higher pay - but they get the job done and move on. I have watched NJ lay more asphalt in one night than we have laid in months. So, you tell me; which is cost effective?

It would seem that penndot's approach is more cost effective. Even accounting for the fact that 45% of every dollar spent in NJ is on debt or "administrative" costs they are still spending exponentially more money per mile and not getting a superior product. NJ is first in expense, 46th in road quality. PA is 23rd in expense, 39th in road quality.

Originally Posted by fisheye

No; I do not have a vested interest in I-80. Other than occasionally taking a six mile trip on the road. I am a retired truck driver. I do work for one company that is on around the corner from me - but has nothing to with my old profession.

I think tolling is a way to match use with expense. Let's not pretend it's"antitrucking" or anything like that. We may disagree but I don't have it out for trucks. there are plenty of arguments out there about what really drives cost and they get contentious when, in the end, there isn't enough money. nobody cares when there's enough money. You're a retired truck driver, you know that congestion is a problem. the schuylkill is "free" but there are few trucks on it. I don't need to be a truck driver to know that they must be avoiding it because of it's notorious congestion.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by pman

It would seem that penndot's approach is more cost effective. Even accounting for the fact that 45% of every dollar spent in NJ is on debt or "administrative" costs they are still spending exponentially more money per mile and not getting a superior product. NJ is first in expense, 46th in road quality. PA is 23rd in expense, 39th in road quality.

You can go on about how PA's highway department is better than NJ's. But how many miles have you traveled in both states? NJ's highway crews work with the motorist. They proficiently work during off-peak hours to facilitate traffic. I rarely saw accidents because of their roadwork. In my County we love to work on the busiest days of year and stop traffic - accidents are commonplace. Many of NJ's Interstates were well maintained. The only roads that really had problems were those right in large cities like Newark. But I have not driven over there for about seven years.

Originally Posted by pman

I think tolling is a way to match use with expense. Let's not pretend it's"antitrucking" or anything like that. We may disagree but I don't have it out for trucks. there are plenty of arguments out there about what really drives cost and they get contentious when, in the end, there isn't enough money. nobody cares when there's enough money. You're a retired truck driver, you know that congestion is a problem. the schuylkill is "free" but there are few trucks on it. I don't need to be a truck driver to know that they must be avoiding it because of it's notorious congestion.

You currently have the mechanism to increase our taxes. You can raise the tax on diesel or gasoline and you don't need more government. Regardless of what you say about tolling; it is just another tax and some of that money will go to administer the program. Motorist are already paying; the key to improving is containing cost and learning to work proficiently.

Here is what I see in my (now small - because I am retired) world. Three miles of State Route 314 has been closed three times in the last five years for major roadwork. It is the section that is between Routes 940 and Route 611. All three of those closures were for about one year. The last closure was for bridge replacement. They no sooner opened the road than they shut down one lane for two months for tree trimming - that took two months. A few months later they shut down a lane to clean the shoulder - that only took a few days. However; the road still has a bad culvert that leaks water up through the pavement for months after any heavy rain. This section of road is an old concrete road up a hill. The drainage ditches get washed out every hard rain - they were never paved. The road is perpetually rough; even with what we call major repaving. I just blame our highway department for extremely poor planning and lack of foresight. We put Band-Aids on major problems and expect miracles. Roadwork should be done once and done - our roads are too dangerous for workfare. More money will not improve management.