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We moved to Philly from Texas a few years back and made our first visit to the central and western parts of the state. While in Somerset County for a couple of days, we were surprised to see all the confederate flags. We saw 5 within the first 24 hours and couple more the next day. They hung from flagpoles, over balconies and were on a couple of bumper stickers as well.
When I visited my in-laws in rural South Carolina, I only saw two confederate flags in an entire week. What gives?
racist rednecks. Pa has been famously described as Pennsyltucky between Philly and Pittsburgh.
Perhaps there is some truth to what you say, but I'm hoping this thread can proceed without name calling and epithets. Is there any history with the more rural parts of the state associated with the south and state's rights? Are we seeing more or fewer of these flags in the last 10 years ago?
I find it really astounding that confederate flags are more prevalent in small town PA than in rural South Carolina.
Perhaps there is some truth to what you say, but I'm hoping this thread can proceed without name calling and epithets. Is there any history with the more rural parts of the state associated with the south and state's rights? Are we seeing more or fewer of these flags in the last 10 years ago?
I find it really astounding that confederate flags are more prevalent in small town PA than in rural South Carolina.
I rarely used to see them around in the central part of the state. I think they are becoming common due to the huge media story on the confederate flag coming down in SC and it's symbol of rural living. Even rural PA is far, far from southern. Backwards Appalachian? Yes, somewhat. But not southern.
There are some people for whom, unfortunately, race enters into the issue, but for the most part, I see it as a (mostly symbolic) revolt against the (mostly symbolic) elitism of the coastal cities.
Pittsburgh and the surrounding area subscribes to its own ethic, but it you leave that area out of the mix, all of Pennsylvania to the north and west of a line from Easton, through the Lehigh Valley, Reading, Harrisburg and Chambersburg is essentially rural and mountainous -- developed by the same rules that separate West Virginia from "Virginia proper".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine to Vine
Is there any history with the more rural parts of the state associated with the south and state's rights? Are we seeing more or fewer of these flags in the last 10 years ago?
The people who settled here had a more difficult row to hoe -- literally! Not many scholars are aware of the "Fishing Creek Confederacy", for example.
That disparity carries over to the present day on a number of smaller issues; upstate residents, for example, used to get bogus traffic and parking tickets from magistrates in Philadelphia -- and many weren't savvy enough to know how to fight them. The disputes over gun control and sport hunting are another example. And for whatever reason, as soon as you venture north of I-78, you'll see at least as much support for the Steelers as the Eagles in the local gin mills.
The Town of Bloomsburg is a prominent example. It's anchored by Bloomsburg University, which now has a student population of 8000, much of it drawn from suburban Philadelphia and the Lehigh Valley, and the students' lifestyle clashes with that of many of the locals, who live simpler lives often anchored by stronger traditional values. The town is also home to the Bloomsburg Fair (annual attendance well into six figures) and that institution pays its bills in part by hosting outdoor shows, "monster truck" rallies, and the like.
So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of Confederate-flag-based memorabilia show up at the summer attractions -- just a superficial "in yer face" act of defiance at the demonized, self-proclaimed "more-refined" outsiders; race usually has little to do with it.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 09-16-2015 at 09:53 AM..
The PA folks who fly the battle flag of Northern Virginia (mistakenly referred to as the Confederate flag) probably never heard of Stonewall Jackson or Nathan Bedford Forrest. They fly the flag as a sign of rebellion.
I quote from a conversation that Pres. Obama had with a contributor at an exclusive fund raising event in San Francisco in 2008:
"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them...and they fell through the Clinton Administration, and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”
Thanks for your post. Two observations struck me upon reading this. The first is the bolded phrase:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
The Town of Bloomsburg is a prominent example. It's anchored by Bloomsburg University, which now has a student population of 8000, much of it drawn from suburban Philadelphia and the Lehigh Valley, and the students' lifestyle clashes with that of many of the locals, who live simpler lives often anchored by stronger traditional values.
So often, traditional values equates to "homersexuals" staying in the closet, black people staying in their part of town and lots of "No Spanish spoken!" signs around town.
The second is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of Confederate-flag-based memorabilia show up at the summer attractions -- just a superficial "in yer face" act of defiance at the demonized, self-proclaimed "more-refined" outsiders; race usually has little to do with it.
It doesn't matter what might behind the reasons for people's display of these flags. It matters how they are perceived. I kept wondering what might be in the minds of black people as they come into an area with a noticeable number of these symbols of a very different time.
Thanks for your post. Two observations struck me upon reading this. The first is the bolded phrase:
Quote:
The Town of Bloomsburg is a prominent example. It's anchored by Bloomsburg University, which now has a student population of 8000, much of it drawn from suburban Philadelphia and the Lehigh Valley, and the students' lifestyle clashes with that of many of the locals, who live simpler lives often anchored by stronger traditional values.
So often, traditional values equates to "homersexuals" staying in the closet, black people staying in their part of town and lots of "No Spanish spoken!" signs around town.
The second is this:
It doesn't matter what might behind the reasons for people's display of these flags. It matters how they are perceived. I kept wondering what might be in the minds of black people as they come into an area with a noticeable number of these symbols of a very different time.
A fair point, but I also wonder what's in the mind of a laborer earning $28k per year at a local factory facing foreign competition, who sees his role as a field hand on the "new" Federal plantation overseen by Master Obama -- possibly suspecting an upcoming role scrubbing floors and policing the parking lot at an assisted-living facility for an even-smaller "salary".
It seems to boil down to which side has a stronger sense of symbolism.
Pittsburgh and the surrounding area subscribes to its own ethic, but it you leave that area out of the mix, all of Pennsylvania to the north and west of a line from Easton, through the Lehigh Valley, Reading, Harrisburg and Chambersburg is essentially rural and mountainous -- developed by the same rules that separate West Virginia from "Virginia proper".
...
So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of Confederate-flag-based memorabilia show up at the summer attractions -- just a superficial "in yer face" act of defiance at the demonized, self-proclaimed "more-refined" outsiders; race usually has little to do with it.
Nevermind that this is a completely socially-constructed divide. Even rural Pennsylvania is still very distinct from a place like West Virginia for a multitude of reasons, but again, media perceptions win the day.
The idea that more "refined" people from the more urbanized parts of the state collide so much with the rest of the state because of their more "traditional" values is just a bunch of malarkey. Again, this divide has now been socially ingrained in our collective conscience by the media, after years and years of this red state v. blue state nonsense. I can't think of anything more socially destructive than this uber-division of politics in recent years--it is literally tearing our country apart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd trick op
A fair point, but I also wonder what's in the mind of a laborer earning $28k per year at a local factory facing foreign competition, who sees his role as a field hand on the "new" Federal plantation overseen by Master Obama -- possibly suspecting an upcoming role scrubbing floors and policing the parking lot at an assisted-living facility for an even-smaller "salary".
It seems to boil down to which side has a stronger sense of symbolism.
Even the suggestion that Obama is remotely responsible for outsourcing (a decades-old phenomenon) is absolutely absurd, especially if anyone views it through the mentally-disturbed lens of "reverse racism."
Political discussions aside, I, too, have seen an uptick in confederate flags in rural areas (not just in Pennsylvania, also in states like Maryland and New Hampshire) in my travels.
Although I completely understand the racially-charged history behind it, I think the vast majority of people displaying it really are doing so because they see it as a symbol of rebellion and glorification of a rural, "redneck" lifestyle, regardless of it originating in the South.
Whether they are completely ignorant of how it comes across is a different story, and I'm sure the ancestors of many of these people in Central Pennsylvania--who undoubtedly fought in the Civil War for the Union--would be rolling in their graves.
It's the redneckization of blue-collar white America, and it's actually happening everywhere, which makes it tiresome that people keep pointing it out in Pennsylvania over and over again, as if it's somehow unique. Ohio has had multiple Confederate flag parades this summer, including towns like Bucyrus, Kenton and Troy, none of which are anywhere near the Ohio River, I might add. Confederate flag paraphernalia was also sold at the Lorain County Fair. Nobody'd sell it there if demand didn't exist. There was also a Confederate flag parade in Michigan. The Confederate flag appears to be a thing in Indiana too, with flags seen all over the Indianapolis area, as well as an instance of racial intimidation gone awry in South Bend. Minnesota had Confederate flags show up in twodifferent Independence Day parades. Minnesotans love themsome Confederate flag, apparently. Here's a Confederate flag kerfluffle from Utah, and here's a collection of Confederate flag pictures taken at Sonoma Raceway, which is located in an area where rednecks supposedly don't exist: northern California. And from my own experience, the vehicle most heavily decked out in Confederate flag imagery I've ever seen was a dualie pickup truck with Illinois plates. I wish I still had the pictures, but this was about a decade ago, and they've been lost. I guess I'll just substitute it with a picture of a truck with New Jersey plates instead.
Seriously, if everybody's going to keep airing Pennsylvania's dirty laundry over and over again, then I might as well start airing the dirty laundry in other states that everybody likes to pretend doesn't exist. Non-Pennsylvanians who are reading this topic should make double damn sure to clean up the messes in their own homes before even commenting on the mess here. Plain and simple, Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west, and THE REST OF THE UNITED STATES in between. The redneckization of blue-collar white America is a 50-state phenomenon, not just a "Southern states plus Pennsylvania" phenomenon.
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