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We've been down the political comparison road before. Yes, Pennsylvania is the most conservative state in the Northeast--no one has debated that. Also, there is a strong inverse relationship to population and Republican voting on that map--meaning the more heavily Republican, the more rural. Not exactly a telling representation of the electorate.
That's not why Pennsylvania has a much stronger Republican lean than other states in the Northeast.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I also wanted to address the "New York only votes more Democratic than Pennsylvania because NYC is so monstrously big" argument. That's simply not true. You could actually remove the entire NYC MSA, Buffalo and Rochester from New York State and the state as a whole would still vote Democratic.
So let's pretend that NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Rockdale, Buffalo and Rochester had simply evaporated the night before Election Day.
NYS - NYC - Long Island - Westchester - Rockdale - Buffalo - Rochester = 52.9% Obama
That's higher than the 52.0% of Pennsylvania voters that cast a vote for Obama. And that's after wiping out New York's biggest cities completely. Now let's do the same thing for Pennsylvania, removing only Philadelphia.
Pennsylvania - Philadelphia = 51.8% Romney
So it's not true that NYC is carrying the state to consistent Democratic victories. While the city accounts for nearly 44% of the state's population, it's only about a third of the state's voting population. The reason why New York votes consistently Democratic has as much to do with its rural areas and small towns as it does its big cities. Philadelphia, on the other hand, is carrying its state to Democratic victories to an extent that NYC is not. And that's because there are so many more Republican votes in rural Pennsylvania to offset.
As noted above, the difference between NY and PA has more to do with political differences in rural areas and small towns. Not all rural areas vote 75-80% Republican. In New York, New England, and the Upper Midwest, there is a huge contrast between voting patterns in rural areas and the voting patterns of the Lower Midwest and the Upland South.
A survey I have posted no fewer than 15 times in different threads you've participated in. That survey, taken in 2000, also shows Pennsylvania voters to be more socially conservative than Virginia voters. Nobody ever explained why that might be the case.
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Originally Posted by Duderino
Also, again, I fail to see what state politics has to do with this. People who fly the confederate flag likely don't even vote, as they're likely detached from the political system entirely.
What evidence do you have that people that fly Confederate flags don't vote?
Politics has a lot to do with this. Politically and culturally (and linguistically), Pennsylvania, particularly Western Pennsylvania, has much in common with places like West Virginia, Southern Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Southern Illinois, Missouri, etc. This makes sense considering it was largely Pennsylvania backwoods settlers that established many of the towns in these places.
Exactly. I think it's fallacious to conflate Republicans with the confederate flag. I'd hate to see this thread spiral down a political path.
It's not fallacious. It's mostly Republican areas where Confederate battle flags are flown, which is not to say that all Republican areas fly the flag. I really doesn't take much intellectual acumen to make this observation.
Besides, it's stupid to start a thread about the Confederate battle flag and expect there to not be a discussion about racism and political/social conservatism.
Politics has a lot to do with this. Politically and culturally (and linguistically), Pennsylvania, particularly Western Pennsylvania, has much in common with places like West Virginia, Southern Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Southern Illinois, Missouri, etc. This makes sense considering it was largely Pennsylvania backwoods settlers that established many of the towns in these places.
The fact remains that the survey from 2000 cited earlier clearly demonstrates that the Republican voters of Pennsylvania are more moderate compared to their counterparts elsewhere. I will leave it at that on the political discussion.
Why don't we turn the discussion to this supposed exact same demographic profile, as you claim, of Western Pennsylvania compared to the Lower Midwest/Upland South.
Are you really suggesting that in terms of religious identification, wealth, ethnic makeup, industry, history, etc. that Johnstown, PA is the same as Louisville, KY?
You do realize that migration patterns have moved from East to West, and thus prior to settling Western PA, and points West and South, these migrants started in Eastern Pennsylvania? Yet, according to you, these areas are so culturally disconnected.
The fact remains that the survey from 2000 cited earlier clearly demonstrates that the Republican voters of Pennsylvania are more moderate compared to their counterparts elsewhere. I will leave it at that on the political discussion.
Pennsylvania is moderate in the same sense that Virginia is moderate. Polarized is really a more accurate characterization of these states than moderate. "Moderate" is a term best applied to a state like Minnesota that doesn't have many counties that lean too strongly one way or the other.
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Originally Posted by Duderino
Why don't we turn the discussion to this supposed exact same demographic profile, as you claim, of Western Pennsylvania compared to the Lower Midwest/Upland South.
Where did I say these states had the "exact same demographic profile"? You're too smart for silly strawmen arguments. I said that the Lower Midwest and much of Appalachia were settled by Pennsylvanians so it's not surprising that there are some similarities in the political culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino
You do realize that migration patterns have moved from East to West, and thus prior to settling Western PA, and points West and South, these migrants started in Eastern Pennsylvania? Yet, according to you, these areas are so culturally disconnected.
Yes, there is a difference because Pennsylvania's colonial "backcountry" was settled mostly by Scots-Irish and then later Germans. These settlers went directly from Philadelphia to the countryside. Northeastern PA has a bit of a different settlement history from Western Pennsylvania since Yankees pushed into that area of the state from New York, New Jersey and Connecticut.
The area of their settlement may be observed in the first U.S. Census of 1790. The distribution of surnames shows that immigrants from North Britain found their way into every part of the American colonies. But by far the largest concentration was to be found in the backcountry region that included southwestern Pennsylvania, the western parts of Maryland and Virginia, North and South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky and Tennessee.
Throughout that broad area, more than half of the population came from Scotland, Ireland and northern England. Other ethnic minorities also moved into the backcountry, but their numbers remained comparatively small. The largest of the non English- speaking groups were the Germans, who swarmed into the west- central parts of Pennsylvania and Maryland, and also in the northern reaches of the Valley of Virginia. But altogether, the Germans made up only about 5 percent of the population in North and South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky in 1790. They remained a very small minority in the southern highlands.
Other ethnic groups also included scattered settlements of French Huguenots, Swiss Protestants, Welsh Baptists, West Indians and even a colony of Greeks. But 90 percent of the backsettlers were either English, Irish or Scottish; and an actual majority came from Ulster, the Scottish lowlands, and the north of England. North Britons were 73 to 80 percent of the population in Virginia's Augusta, Rockbridge, Fayette and Lincoln counties, 75 percent in Pennsylvania's Washington County, 90 percent in some counties of Tenneseee and Kentucky, nearly 100 percent in the Hillsboro district of North Carolina and a large majority in much of the South Carolina upcountry. These areas would become the seed settlements of the southern highlands.
Numbers alone, however, were not the full measure of their dominion. These emigrants from North Britain established in the southern highlands a cultural hegemony that was even greater than their proportion in the population. An explanation of this fact may be found in the character of this American environment, which proved to be exceptionally well matched to the culture of the British borderlands.
The earlier study I cited spells out the settlement differences quite clearly.
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The originating areas of the settlement streams of Figure 10.4 match quite well the four "cultural hearths" posited by David Hackett Fischer (1989) as the source of American folkways. The New England stream continues the tradition of the Puritan migration from East Anglia to Massachusetts; the Pennsylvania stream expands the Quaker migration from the North Midlands to the Delaware Valley; the coastal South was originally settled by a movement of Cavalier society from the south of England to Virginia, and then to the Carolinas. Not shown so distinctly is the fourth movement from the borderlands of England to the upland South. Much of the expansion in the Midland area from the Ohio River northward represents the movement of the Scots-Irish who came through Philadelphia and moved southward, first through the Appalachian area and then into the Midwest. The cultural conflict described by historians reflects the opposition between Yankees from New England and settlers from Fischer's "borderlands" regions who migrated northward from the upland South.
Notice the prevalence of log cabin construction in Western and Southwestern Pennsylvania as well as the Lower Midwest. These were completely different "cultural hearths" as Fischer says.
Notice the prevalence of log cabin construction in Western and Southwestern Pennsylvania as well as the Lower Midwest. These were completely different "cultural hearths" as Fischer says.
Right. I completely understand and acknowledge that settlement patterns are pretty unique for Pennsylvania compared to the rest of the Northeast. And no doubt, this has had a significant effect on its political culture historically.
However, every state in the US, including the rest of the Northeast, as well as states that are connected to Pennsylvania's "cultural hearth," have a multitude of factors that have shaped and influenced their culture, politically and otherwise.
It's been hundreds of years since the initial European settlers came to the US. Years and years of domestic migration, continued immigration from "third wave" immigrant communities, and not to mention massive technological changes that have given rise to completely new industries, etc. Other demographic influences include wealth generation, religious identification, age distribution, educational attainment, etc. These are all things that shape the fiber of communities, including their voting behavior.
This is why, looking at your 2012 Election municipal results map, New Hampshire and Vermont, two states that share a lot of the same history and demographics and lie squarely within the New England region, vote in pretty starkly different ways.
What I'm trying to say is that while there are historical ties that inform the politics and other cultural aspects (e.g., propensity to display a confederate flag) of Pennsylvania, there are still many others. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
Right. I completely understand and acknowledge that settlement patterns are pretty unique for Pennsylvania compared to the rest of the Northeast. And no doubt, this has had a significant effect on its political culture historically.
However, every state in the US, including the rest of the Northeast, as well as states that are connected to Pennsylvania's "cultural hearth," have a multitude of factors that have shaped and influenced their culture, politically and otherwise.
It's been hundreds of years since the initial European settlers came to the US. Years and years of domestic migration, continued immigration from "third wave" immigrant communities, and not to mention massive technological changes that have given rise to completely new industries, etc. Other demographic influences include wealth generation, religious identification, age, educational attainment, etc. These are all things that shape the fiber of communities, including their voting behavior.
This is why, looking at your 2012 Election municipal results map, New Hampshire and Vermont, two states that share a lot of the same history and demographics and lie squarely within the New England region, vote in pretty starkly different ways.
What I'm trying to say is that while there are historical ties that inform the politics and other cultural aspects (e.g., propensity to display a confederate flag) of Pennsylvania, there are still many others. Nothing exists in a vacuum.
I never said settlement patterns were the only thing that mattered. I said that they might explain why Pennsylvania is more conservative than other Northeastern states.
And my question still hasn't been answered after nearly two years: why are Pennsylvania voters more conservative than voters in other Northeastern states? Even New Hampshire, a decidedly non-urban state with a strong libertarian streak, has a much more socially liberal electorate than Pennsylvania. Obviously, the answer can't be that Pennsylvania is soooooo much more rural than New Hampshire. We also know that the proportion of the rural vote is NOT why Pennsylvania leans far to the right of NYS since you can obliterate the NYC metro and other cities and still have a state that votes Democratic. This isn't so for PA if you remove Philly.
If you look at Page 212 of this document reflecting the prevalence of log cabin construction (built on the frontier largely by the Scots-Irish), and then compare the map on Page 212 to the political map I posted earlier, it's quite an interesting coincidence, no? The reddest parts of the state are also the areas where "borderlands" settlement was heaviest.
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