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Guess the Dave Ramsey followers are the 1% that don't have a credit card balance to pay. They paid all their bills in cash or debit card.
Baby step 1 they have $1000 in emergency fund
Baby step 2 all the debts are paid except for the house
Baby step 3 they have 3-6 months emergency fund saved.
Baby step 4 they put 15% of their pay into a retirement fund.
Baby step 5 pay off the house
Baby step 6 take care of children's college fund
Baby step 7 be generous with their money
Baby step 8 retire with no debt, they have plenty of money.
Maybe in Covid they used their emergency fund to pay some bills. When they get back to work job 1 is to refill the emergency fund. They did not cash out of retirement funds so that they can ride out the storm. For 4 months they bought only shelter, food, medical supply, not much else
You do realize that plenty of people who don't follow DR have savings, no consumer debt, paid off homes, have better sense to cash in retirement investments, etc. right? It's not a binary world.
I've noticed that a lot of stores and pharmacies in my area won't accept cash right now. For all of those Dave Ramsey followers who eschew credit cards, what are they doing during the this time? The envelope system maybe doesn't work quite as well during a pandemic.
Dave Ramsey's financial advice is becoming outdated. He advises people to use debit cards but many financial advisers now say DO NOT use a debit card because it's a huge risk for fraud. He also seems to tout the belief that people cannot control themselves with credit cards. This is just an opinion he has. Sure, some people go crazy with credit cards. But many, many, many people pay their cards off and do not over spend with them. He should try limiting himself to using cash only and see how that works - it doesn't. I did it for several years and it didn't help my financial situation and I was very limited in what I could & where I could go, using only cash.
Hey, if you are worried about stores & restaurants tracking you, then pay with cash and tell them to keep the change if they don't have any to give you. Make sure you have lots of one dollar bills.
"Baby step 1 they have $1000 in emergency fund"
Until they have an emergency. Or two emergencies. Unfortunately emergencies do not adhere to the Dave Ramsey plan.
"Baby step 2 all the debts are paid except for the house."
Assuming you do not have two or three cars go kaput at once or a huge dental bill, or medical bill, or the roof on your house partially collapses, or. . . . Your $1000 emergency fund is not going to help at all with any of these and then it will be gone. It is not unusual for one or three of these kinds of things to happen all in the same year. Debt is nearly unavoidable. (Not to mention college debt, or debt incurred for other career tools).
Baby step 3 they have 3-6 months emergency fund saved.
This should be baby step 7. It is simply impractical for most people. Also it never ends. If I had saved 3-6 months of living expenses five years out of school, I would have to continue saving more every years as my expenses went up. I would never be able to stop, so this step is unachievable.
Baby step 4 they put 15% of their pay into a retirement fund.
This is not allowed. There is a cap unless you are funding outside the tax deferred 401K. In that case, there are better things to do with the money like bulk up an HSA, pay down the house (depending on the interest rate). A better baby step is to put money in your 401K immediately. The first year you work. then increase it by 1% per year at least until you hit you employers maximum match amount. Then you can focus on other things and later start increasing the percentage 1% a year again after accomplishing other steps. Starting early and giving it time to build up is more important than hitting some arbitrary % of your income. put 410 a month in at first if that is all you can do, but put something in. I didn't, now I tell my kids not to make this mistake.
Baby step 5 pay off the house
"Not realistic. This should be number 8, especially in high real estate locations like California or New York. You are not going to pay off a $1 million house on a $180,000 combined salary before you retire. Since your mortgage is usually the lowest interest debt, it is foolish to pay it off before accomplishing anything else. Are you really going to pay of your 2.75% mortgage and then cosign a 7% student loan for your kid because you never were able to save anything to help them with college?
"Baby step 6 take care of children's college fund'
Again not realistic. This needs to be step 1 or 2. you need to start saving when they are born or before. Otherwise you will be helping them pay off their loans after they graduate, not saving for a college fund. If you have two (or five) kids, you need to start saving before you are born. Even with scholarships and summer jobs it takes a ton of money to get through college, particularly since you now need an advanced degree to get anywhere in most fields. Better yet help your kids figure out whether college is really for them. It is not for everyone. Our 5 kids all did well in high school all got at lest partial scholarships. Two of them hated college and quit. One after 3 1/2 years of engineering school. That money would have been put to better use by one of the others. The trick is, how do you help them figure it out? One step toward that goal is to counter the school culture that you have failed if you do not go to college. College is neither the path to happiness nor to success. It is just a tool. useful for some people and worthless for others. If they accept this, they will be better equipped to figure out whether or not college is for them. Luckily one of our kids figured it out in her first month of college.
Baby step 7 be generous with their money.
Sorry this is baby step -1. God's share comes first. The rest is yours to distribute. Be generous your entire life. If you do not start right away, you will get obsessed and always find reasons why you need to save more or use more of your money to pay off things. Being generous and being a good person takes practice. If you wait until you are 60 to start practicing, you will never gt it. You will too entrenched in your miserly ways. Please watch A Christmas Carol. It may be helpful to understanding this. Scrooge was not always miserly and miserable, he just followed the Dave Ramsey program and became that way. I gave away tons of money through my life and I am now struggling to get out of debt and enough to retire. I do not regret it though.
"Baby step 8 retire with no debt, they have plenty of money."
There is no "plenty of money" It is never enough. It will always seem like you need more. Do not be afraid to plan to step down your lifestyle when you retire. I learned this from my father. Life gets more simple. You do not need as much. the financial experts calculated that I would need $8 million to maintain my lifestyle when i retire. I am not sure I will even earn $8 million in my lifetime. Now, the fidelity calculator thingy says I need about $2 million. Simply not going to happen. In any event I will not need that much. I am not going to live anything like I live now once I retire. My father lives on about $22,000 a year. He has some money in investments, but he does not use much of it ever. He says he does not need it. You can, and you will live on whatever you have. Maybe you will have to spend a few holiday seasons as a Walmart greeter every other year - not the end of the world. In fact, it might be kind of fun.
I will not retire with no debt, I will still owe money on our house. However I will have a half million or so in equity in the house by then. Yes, I could buy a $100,000 house and pay it off sooner but then I will not have a half million in equity in the house when I retire and i will not be able to live in a place I love until I retire.
A better plan is to set realistic achievable goals. If you set unachievable goals or goals where the target keeps moving, you will get discouraged and give up. Also I think you need to focus on multiple goals at the same time. Save for kids college while at the same time paying off debt. If you don't you will end up with nothing saved for college and take out new debt. Better to pay off some debt and save some for colelge and then when your kids are out of college focus on the debt.
Dave Ramsey misses my number 1 rule entirely. 1. Enjoy life. Save money and get/stay out of debt is on my list, but it is not number 1, nor is it number 2 or 3. Can you enjoy life without "enough" savings? Absolutely, because whatever you save, it will never be "enough" and it will make you stressed because it is insufficient and/or because you are worried about losing it and it will do the opposite of making you happy. I have a chunk of money saved for retirement, but it is not "enough" I am also aware it is unlikely that the government will allow me to keep that money for the next 30 years. Before I die, they will take at least most of it (they have no other choice, too many people have not saved enough to survive) and all of my efforts to save "enough" will have been for naught. At least I have enjoyed life and raised 5 awesome kids. The government can never tax that away from me. Besides I can live on next to nothing if I have to. Money does not make me happy and if they take my money and I have to live on the cheap, it wiill not prevent me from being happy.
Last edited by Coldjensens; 07-30-2020 at 01:07 PM..
"Baby step 1 they have $1000 in emergency fund"
Until they have an emergency. Or two emergencies. Unfortunately emergencies do not adhere to the Dave Ramsey plan.
"Baby step 2 all the debts are paid except for the house."
Assuming you do not have two or three cars go kaput at once or a huge dental bill, or medical bill, or the roof on your house partially collapses, or. . . . Your $1000 emergency fund is not going to help at all with any of these and then it will be gone. It is not unusual for one or three of these kinds of things to happen all in the same year.
Baby step 3 they have 3-6 months emergency fund saved.
This should be baby step 7. It is imply impractical for most people.
Baby step 4 they put 15% of their pay into a retirement fund.
This is not allowed. There is a cap unless you are funding outside the tax deferred 401K. In that case, there are better things to do with the money like bulk up an HSA, pay down the house (depending on the interest rate). A better baby step is to put money in your 401K immediately. The first year you work. then increase it by 1% per year at least until you hit you employers maximum match amount. Then you can focus on other things and later start increasing the percentage 1% a year again after accomplishing other steps. Starting early and giving it time to build up is more important than hitting some arbitrary % of your income. put 410 a month in at first if that is all you can do, but put something in. I didn't, now I tell my kids not to make this mistake.
Baby step 5 pay off the house
"Not realistic. This should be number 8, especially in high real estate locations like California or New York. You are not going to pay off a $1 million house on a $180,000 combined salary before you retire.
"Baby step 6 take care of children's college fund'
Again not realistic. This needs to be step 1 or 2. you need to start saving when they are born or before. Otherwise you will be helping them pay off their loans after they graduate, not saving for a college fund. If you have two (or five) kids, you need to start saving before you are born. Even with scholarships and summer jobs it takes a ton of money to get through college, particularly since you now need an advanced degree to get anywhere in most fields. Better yet help your kids figure out whether college is really for them. It is not for everyone. Our 5 kids all did well in high school all got at lest partial scholarships. Two of them hated college and quit. One after 3 1/2 years of engineering school. That money would have been put to better use by one of the others. The trick is, how do you help them figure it out? One step toward that goal is to counter the school culture that you have failed if you do not go to college. College is neither the path to happiness nor to success. It is just a tool. useful for some people and worthless for others. If they accept this, they will be better equipped to figure out whether or not college is for them. Luckily one of our kids figured it out in her first month of college.
Baby step 7 be generous with their money.
Sorry this is baby step -1. God's share comes first. The rest is yours to distribute. Be generous your entire life. If you do not start right away, you will get obsessed and always find reasons why you need to save more or use more of your money to pay off things. Being generous and being a good person takes practice. If you wait until you are 60 to start practicing, you will never gt it. You will too entrenched in your miserly ways. Please watch A Christmas Carol. It may be helpful to understanding this. Scrooge was not always miserly and miserable, he just followed the Dave Ramsey program and became that way. I gave away tons of money through my life and I am now struggling to get out of debt and enough to retire. I do not regret it though.
"Baby step 8 retire with no debt, they have plenty of money."
There is no "plenty of money" It is never enough. It will always seem like you need more. Do not be afraid to plan to step down your lifestyle when you retire. I learned this from my father. Life gets more simple. You do not need as much. the financial experts calculated that I would need $8 million to maintain my lifestyle when i retire. I am not sure I will even earn $8 million in my lifetime. Now, the fidelity calculator thingy says I need about $2 million. Simply not going to happen. In any event I will not need that much. I am not going to live anything like I live now once I retire. My father lives on about $22,000 a year. He has some money in investments, but he does not use much of it ever. He says he does not need it. You can, and you will live on whatever you have. Maybe you will have to spend a few holiday seasons as a Walmart greeter every other year - not the end of the world. In fact, it might be kind of fun.
I will not retire with no debt, I will still owe money on our house. However I will have a half million or so in equity in the house by then. Yes, I could buy a $100,000 house and pay it off sooner but then I will not have a half million in equity in the house when I retire and i will not be able to live in a place I love until I retire.
Dave Ramsey misses my number 1 rule entirely. 1. Enjoy life. Save money and get/stay out of debt is on my list, but it is not number 1, nor is it number 2 or 3. Can you enjoy life without "enough" savings? Absolutely, because whatever you save, it will never be "enough" and it will make you stressed because it is insufficient and/or because you are worried about losing it and it will do the opposite of making you happy. I have a chunk of money saved for retirement, but it is not "enough" I am also aware it is unlikely that the government will allow me to keep that money for the next 30 years. Before I die, they will take at least most of it (they have no other choice, too many people have not saved enough to survive) and all of my efforts to save "enough" will have been for naught. At least I have enjoyed life and raised 5 awesome kids. The government can never tax that away from me. Besides I can live on next to nothing if I have to. Money does not make me happy and if they take my money and I have to live on the cheap, it wiill not prevent me from being happy.
There are many ,many many ways kids can finance college if they insist on not going to local colleges ....I don’t know one loan a parent can take to fund their retirement
"Baby step 1 they have $1000 in emergency fund"
Until they have an emergency. Or two emergencies. Unfortunately emergencies do not adhere to the Dave Ramsey plan.
"Baby step 2 all the debts are paid except for the house."
Assuming you do not have two or three cars go kaput at once or a huge dental bill, or medical bill, or the roof on your house partially collapses, or. . . . Your $1000 emergency fund is not going to help at all with any of these and then it will be gone. It is not unusual for one or three of these kinds of things to happen all in the same year. Debt is nearly unavoidable. (Not to mention college debt, or debt incurred for other career tools).
Baby step 3 they have 3-6 months emergency fund saved.
This should be baby step 7. It is simply impractical for most people. Also it never ends. If I had saved 3-6 months of living expenses five years out of school, I would have to continue saving more every years as my expenses went up. I would never be able to stop, so this step is unachievable.
Baby step 4 they put 15% of their pay into a retirement fund.
This is not allowed. There is a cap unless you are funding outside the tax deferred 401K. In that case, there are better things to do with the money like bulk up an HSA, pay down the house (depending on the interest rate). A better baby step is to put money in your 401K immediately. The first year you work. then increase it by 1% per year at least until you hit you employers maximum match amount. Then you can focus on other things and later start increasing the percentage 1% a year again after accomplishing other steps. Starting early and giving it time to build up is more important than hitting some arbitrary % of your income. put 410 a month in at first if that is all you can do, but put something in. I didn't, now I tell my kids not to make this mistake.
Baby step 5 pay off the house
"Not realistic. This should be number 8, especially in high real estate locations like California or New York. You are not going to pay off a $1 million house on a $180,000 combined salary before you retire. Since your mortgage is usually the lowest interest debt, it is foolish to pay it off before accomplishing anything else. Are you really going to pay of your 2.75% mortgage and then cosign a 7% student loan for your kid because you never were able to save anything to help them with college?
"Baby step 6 take care of children's college fund'
Again not realistic. This needs to be step 1 or 2. you need to start saving when they are born or before. Otherwise you will be helping them pay off their loans after they graduate, not saving for a college fund. If you have two (or five) kids, you need to start saving before you are born. Even with scholarships and summer jobs it takes a ton of money to get through college, particularly since you now need an advanced degree to get anywhere in most fields. Better yet help your kids figure out whether college is really for them. It is not for everyone. Our 5 kids all did well in high school all got at lest partial scholarships. Two of them hated college and quit. One after 3 1/2 years of engineering school. That money would have been put to better use by one of the others. The trick is, how do you help them figure it out? One step toward that goal is to counter the school culture that you have failed if you do not go to college. College is neither the path to happiness nor to success. It is just a tool. useful for some people and worthless for others. If they accept this, they will be better equipped to figure out whether or not college is for them. Luckily one of our kids figured it out in her first month of college.
Baby step 7 be generous with their money.
Sorry this is baby step -1. God's share comes first. The rest is yours to distribute. Be generous your entire life. If you do not start right away, you will get obsessed and always find reasons why you need to save more or use more of your money to pay off things. Being generous and being a good person takes practice. If you wait until you are 60 to start practicing, you will never gt it. You will too entrenched in your miserly ways. Please watch A Christmas Carol. It may be helpful to understanding this. Scrooge was not always miserly and miserable, he just followed the Dave Ramsey program and became that way. I gave away tons of money through my life and I am now struggling to get out of debt and enough to retire. I do not regret it though.
"Baby step 8 retire with no debt, they have plenty of money."
There is no "plenty of money" It is never enough. It will always seem like you need more. Do not be afraid to plan to step down your lifestyle when you retire. I learned this from my father. Life gets more simple. You do not need as much. the financial experts calculated that I would need $8 million to maintain my lifestyle when i retire. I am not sure I will even earn $8 million in my lifetime. Now, the fidelity calculator thingy says I need about $2 million. Simply not going to happen. In any event I will not need that much. I am not going to live anything like I live now once I retire. My father lives on about $22,000 a year. He has some money in investments, but he does not use much of it ever. He says he does not need it. You can, and you will live on whatever you have. Maybe you will have to spend a few holiday seasons as a Walmart greeter every other year - not the end of the world. In fact, it might be kind of fun.
I will not retire with no debt, I will still owe money on our house. However I will have a half million or so in equity in the house by then. Yes, I could buy a $100,000 house and pay it off sooner but then I will not have a half million in equity in the house when I retire and i will not be able to live in a place I love until I retire.
A better plan is to set realistic achievable goals. If you set unachievable goals or goals where the target keeps moving, you will get discouraged and give up. Also I think you need to focus on multiple goals at the same time. Save for kids college while at the same time paying off debt. If you don't you will end up with nothing saved for college and take out new debt. Better to pay off some debt and save some for colelge and then when your kids are out of college focus on the debt.
Dave Ramsey misses my number 1 rule entirely. 1. Enjoy life. Save money and get/stay out of debt is on my list, but it is not number 1, nor is it number 2 or 3. Can you enjoy life without "enough" savings? Absolutely, because whatever you save, it will never be "enough" and it will make you stressed because it is insufficient and/or because you are worried about losing it and it will do the opposite of making you happy. I have a chunk of money saved for retirement, but it is not "enough" I am also aware it is unlikely that the government will allow me to keep that money for the next 30 years. Before I die, they will take at least most of it (they have no other choice, too many people have not saved enough to survive) and all of my efforts to save "enough" will have been for naught. At least I have enjoyed life and raised 5 awesome kids. The government can never tax that away from me. Besides I can live on next to nothing if I have to. Money does not make me happy and if they take my money and I have to live on the cheap, it wiill not prevent me from being happy.
"Baby step 6 take care of children's college fund'
Again not realistic. This needs to be step 1 or 2. you need to start saving when they are born or before. Otherwise you will be helping them pay off their loans after they graduate, not saving for a college fund. If you have two (or five) kids, you need to start saving before you are born. Even with scholarships and summer jobs it takes a ton of money to get through college, particularly since you now need an advanced degree to get anywhere in most fields. Better yet help your kids figure out whether college is really for them. It is not for everyone. Our 5 kids all did well in high school all got at lest partial scholarships. Two of them hated college and quit. One after 3 1/2 years of engineering school. That money would have been put to better use by one of the others. The trick is, how do you help them figure it out? One step toward that goal is to counter the school culture that you have failed if you do not go to college. College is neither the path to happiness nor to success. It is just a tool. useful for some people and worthless for others. If they accept this, they will be better equipped to figure out whether or not college is for them. Luckily one of our kids figured it out in her first month of college.
This is the part where I decided to take kids off the table permanently. I fully expect a four-year university degree to cost well over $250k, including room and board, by the time I have children, they grow up, and they are of college age, not to mention the cost of bringing them up to that age to begin with (probably another $250k assuming no private schooling - if private school, add $200k). I have far better uses for that money, like.....securing my own financial future, upgrading my standard of living, or both (most likely both).
I don't think college is the end-all be-all, but if I were to have kids I would want them to have the option, and to have the option without mortgaging your future you need $. Since I'm not confident in my ability to provide those options, kids are a no-go for me.
There should be a step zero, which is "Decide if you're going to have kids AT ALL". If the answer is No, then that step is unnecessary.
Last edited by albert648; 07-30-2020 at 01:58 PM..
This is the part where I decided to take kids off the table permanently. I fully expect a four-year university degree to cost well over $250k, including room and board, by the time I have children, they grow up, and they are of college age, not to mention the cost of bringing them up to that age to begin with (probably another $250k assuming no private schooling - if private school, add $200k). I have far better uses for that money, like.....securing my own financial future, upgrading my standard of living, or both (most likely both).
I don't think college is the end-all be-all, but if I were to have kids I would want them to have the option, and to have the option without mortgaging your future you need $.
There is something called 529 plans to save for college, and there is also the option of community college or other colleges that don't cost a fortune.
There is NO university degree that's worth 250K. If something isn't done soon, there is nothing to stop universities from charging one million dollars for a basic bachelor's degree.
This should concern people who don't have children, too, because lots of older adults want to return to college or advance their education.
Not only when it comes to degrees is 250k ridiculous but When it comes to things like law different schools will not even recruit from certain colleges .
My son was in the top of hosfstra law school ...he applied for a job at a national labor law firm in manhattan ...they said they would love to have him as an intern for the summer but they do not recruit from Hofstra ...if he switches to Columbia , brooklyn or NYU law they will take him .
So he put his papers in ...the school never processed it because they don’t want to lose their top students .
To get more visible he was an editor on a labor law review paper .
What are the odds that he writes a commentary on a case and it was a case handled by the company he applied to ....someone at the white plains office read it and said get this kid in here for an interview..
So he ended up getting hired by the other office .....
Ironically he made general partner in 8 years and became the youngest full equity partner they have in 10 years ... you have attorneys waiting their whole lives for Full equity partner .
Today he works out of the manhattan office and is friends with the attorneys who rejected him ...he is their boss now .
It cost him 125k for law school , 250k for general partner and another 275k for equity partner , plus the first 250k has to be paid off ...so in effect you not only need the degree but you are actually buying a business as a partner ....they have 900 attorneys but very few full equity partners
There is something called 529 plans to save for college, and there is also the option of community college or other colleges that don't cost a fortune.
The 529 plans don't contribute free money. The burden to a parent is the same to reach a given target balance. There's also a difference between choosing to go to cheaper schools and having to go to cheaper schools because they can't afford anything else. I had this option because my parents had the means to give me that option - if I feel I can't afford to provide my (theoretical) child that option, I won't have one. End of story. Personal Finance 101 - know what your priorities are, be realistic about what you can afford, and allocate $ in order of priority. By saying "take care of your children's college fund" Ramsey's assuming a given that you will have children. I'm saying that this very premise is incorrect and needs to be re-examined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
There is NO university degree that's worth 250K. If something isn't done soon, there is nothing to stop universities from charging one million dollars for a basic bachelor's degree.
The question of worth is subjective. In some professions, the letterhead your transcript is printed on plays a huge role in getting your foot in the door - good luck getting into e.g. investment banking or management consulting with a community college degree. Can it be done? Probably. Does having Harvard University plastered on your resume make it easier? Absolutely. Is it a guaranteed ticket into the profession? Absolutely not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
This should concern people who don't have children, too, because lots of older adults want to return to college or advance their education.
I never said that it didn't concern me, I'm just being realistic about the cost of higher education.
Last edited by albert648; 07-30-2020 at 05:19 PM..
I think it’s a bit much to axe out the idea of kids because of college education. We’re talking a life here. And some people want kids to the point it’s their entire dream in life to have a family. Without that family, their life quality is low and incomplete. Hell, 75% of the population doesn’t have a degree and many of them either don’t care or had a fine life anyways.
For example, my parents gave me a great childhood, in particularly early and they didn’t have any money for my college. I had no money for school. Mathjak is correct about professions using pipeline schools. If you didn’t go there, there’s very little chance to get in to companies in the entry level up or out professional cultures. I broke in despite it, but it’s rare. Possible, but a stacked deck. No question. I’ve had people make comments about my school or brag about their school, and my response has always been that we’ve ended up in the same company, so you must have underachieved.
Never estimate the strengths that can come from disadvantage. A way of thinking about problems. Character traits that can come from disadvantage. Look at militaries with vastly inferior forces that won. The Vietcong versus America. America versus the British. The soviets in Afghanistan. With disadvantage comes the ability to take risk. To make decisions that people in positions of strength can’t make. People who have rough setbacks can be emboldened and hardened by it. It’s the concept of the “near miss”. The British in ww2 were terrified their population would capitulate to nazi terror bombing. Some who are actually hit with bombs are mentally or physically destroyed. However, people close enough to hear the bombs and survive over and over eventually develop immunity. They can’t even be bothered to raise their head and look up when the air raid sirens blaze. Their spirit is damn near unbreakable. It’s not even an option to not persevere.
It’s a mindset that can’t be taught. It can only come from being down and out. In almost all cultures, it’s been observed how family wealth goes away after 3 generations, and that’s because in many ways the better off children are simply unable to duplicate the mindset of the person who originally broke the cycle. It’s often the hottest fires that make the hardest steel. Your kids might pay for their own school and walk circles around the soft kids there to party and have their way paved by their parents. One person might be there for that 8 am class, notes ready, alert. The other, sleeping in.
Last edited by Thatsright19; 07-30-2020 at 05:37 PM..
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