Philadelphia 2035 (Reading, Penn: most dangerous, safer, light-rail)

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Septa is pretty bad in Management terms , very backwards and does not think down the road. A Great Example of this is the suspension of the Trolley system and cut back of the Regional Rail system. While NJ and NY did that on some lines , Septa destoried an entire network for stupid reasons and unlike NJ and NY hasn't put any of those lines back. They also try to run there Regional Rail like Rapid Rail , and there Trolleys like Buses.... Its a very broken agency and its hurting SE PA. The City of Philly will some support from Private Investors should buy the Trolley lines and restore the 6 , 23 , 56 , 60 , and Waterfront trolleys , aswell as Expand the system.... The City of Philly never wanted the Trolley lines ripped up in the first place , that was a septa move... And they lied about the condition of some viaducts to end service...

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I mostly agree with you. But living in NYC I hear such similar complaints about the MTA that I can't buy that SEPTA is so uniquely mismanaged (and SEPTA actually did put back one of the decommissioned trolley lines, but I can think of 10 other stupid moves to make up for that). It's still one of the best city transit systems in the country, as sorry as that fact may be.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

Private entities have approached SEPTA multiple times to restore rail service on the Newtown and Reading lines, and SEPTA has repeatedly turned them down.

Thats happened to a smaller extent pre-2008 with NJT , but now NJT wants Private Help. There getting it in the form of infill stations which include Lawrence Harbor & Wesmont Stations. There also doing some of BRT lines....but NJT missed the boat on the Rail lines. I don't understand why Septa or NJT would turn down help from private entities....makes no sense...

[Marius Pontmercy]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Thats happened to a smaller extent pre-2008 with NJT , but now NJT wants Private Help. There getting it in the form of infill stations which include Lawrence Harbor & Wesmont Stations. There also doing some of BRT lines....but NJT missed the boat on the Rail lines. I don't understand why Septa or NJT would turn down help from private entities....makes no sense...

Because SEPTA wants the money that the government would give them if they ever did reopen the closed lines. Anything SEPTA does is bound to cost 10x the amount it should, and take 10x longer than it ought to until it's finished. This means more money for the people working on the project at SEPTA. When they submitted the plan for restoring service to Reading SEPTA insisted the plan include for the full electrification of the line all the way to Reading. This resulted in costs exceeding $3.5 billion for the estimate SEPTA provided, and you know that SEPTA would have gone well over budget. Because of this the federal New Starts program turned the proposal down. If SEPTA had been realistic and used diesels and a cross-platform transfer, or invested in diesel/electric hybrids, the cost would have been a fraction of that in the proposal, but SEPTA didn't want to do this because it would have meant less money in their pockets when the project was approved.

[kidphilly]

US Airways opposes Philadelphia International Airport expansion plan | Philadelphia Inquirer | 01/09/2012

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I'm not saying you're wrong, because I mostly agree with you. But living in NYC I hear such similar complaints about the MTA that I can't buy that SEPTA is so uniquely mismanaged (and SEPTA actually did put back one of the decommissioned trolley lines, but I can think of 10 other stupid moves to make up for that). It's still one of the best city transit systems in the country, as sorry as that fact may be.

It's different. They may complain but the fact is that they are spoiled by that system so much it's not even funny.

Originally Posted by Marius Pontmercy

Because SEPTA wants the money that the government would give them if they ever did reopen the closed lines. Anything SEPTA does is bound to cost 10x the amount it should, and take 10x longer than it ought to until it's finished. This means more money for the people working on the project at SEPTA. When they submitted the plan for restoring service to Reading SEPTA insisted the plan include for the full electrification of the line all the way to Reading. This resulted in costs exceeding $3.5 billion for the estimate SEPTA provided, and you know that SEPTA would have gone well over budget. Because of this the federal New Starts program turned the proposal down. If SEPTA had been realistic and used diesels and a cross-platform transfer, or invested in diesel/electric hybrids, the cost would have been a fraction of that in the proposal, but SEPTA didn't want to do this because it would have meant less money in their pockets when the project was approved.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by rotodome

I think SEPTA prices are already competitive with other transit systems. It does need more ridership though, but the immediate needs are improved maintenance, and upgraded fare systems.
Expansion of the subway system is something that would greatly benefit the city. But of course, that's a very tall order, as few subway systems have actually been expanded recently in US cities. The expansion of the NYC subway has been moving at a snail's pace for decades, and that's for a system with huge ridership though several economic/development boom periods in NYC.

The problem is that their prices are all over the place. NYC is much better at having more uniform pricing. They do things that SEPTA doesn't.

NYC's subway expansion happened largely decades ago. That's why it's moving at a snail's pace. It's not even remotely as urgent as SEPTA's need for expansion.

We can't be comparing ourselves to current trends or to cities other than NYC. They are our real competition when it comes to public transportation and considering that they are the only other East Coast city in the Top 5 in population, they are exactly who we should be trying to learn from. We currently as a metro are doing things that places like NYC did decades ago. It may seem weird but that's exactly what's happening. We need to follow their lead and build a comprehensive subway system, no more El tracks or trolley lines unless it's in the suburbs. We need everything in and around Philly to be underground.

The problem is that NYC didn't do this as a city. It was done by the New York Central railroad company, or parts of it was at least.

[couldntthinkofaclevername]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

US Airways opposes Philadelphia International Airport expansion plan | Philadelphia Inquirer | 01/09/2012

I agree with the airlines. It'd be one thing if federal or state or city dollars were funding it but they aren't. The airlines don't want this and the city wants them to pay for it. I know that the jobs are barely needed but risking losing our existing air service for the "chance" to draw in International service that isn't even guaranteed doesn't seem like a good idea. If they wait long enough, the airlines will eventually go the other way and try to pressure them into building the runway, and will be very willing to foot the bill. They also need to do a better job of finding a replacement spot for UPS. It's not fair to screw them over and could cost the area their business.

Plus, they're really screwing over Tinicum.

[big mike 80]

Has anyone heard anything about the water front line recently?

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by big mike 80

Has anyone heard anything about the water front line recently?

Not really, last significant news was it would likely be run and developed by PATCO and the DRPA. Given the huge slashes to that agency by Corbett it likely may not take place if ever for quite some time.

[kidphilly]

Nearly a year old

Inquirer: DRPA approves contract for Phila. light-rail studies | PlanPhilly: Planning Philadelphia's Future

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by couldntthinkofaclevername

The problem is that their prices are all over the place. NYC is much better at having more uniform pricing. They do things that SEPTA doesn't.

If you compare apples to apples, for the most part the pricing is really not all that different. In both cities, the subway/bus has one fare structure, and then commuter rail (SEPTA Regional Rail, MetroNorth, LIRR) have their own zoned fare structure, and then PATCO & PATH have another (I'm ignoring outliers like ferries, highspeed line, tramway).
It's just at a scale that's orders of magnitude larger, and with a subway system that can operate as a standalone transit system within the city limits.

NYC's subway expansion happened largely decades ago. That's why it's moving at a snail's pace. It's not even remotely as urgent as SEPTA's need for expansion.

No, I was talking about the ongoing expansion that's been undertaken in modern times, ie: something actually analagous to what people are proposing that Philly do. This is a different era, and these days it's extremely difficult to do major city infrastructure projects, even in the best of situations. That was the point.
In NYC it's taken decades to implement the 2nd ave subway and 7 line expansion, and it's still decades away from completion. That's longer than the majority of the entire system took to build in the era in which most of the system was built.
The motivation for the new NYC subway expansion is that some lines are currently running at or over capacity, with more population growth every year, as the city is at peak population and growing. It's not a speculative project, it's actually needed to keep the system working. One could make an argument that it's actually MORE urgent than Philly's need for an expansion, because Philly doesn't rely on the subway system the way NYC does, and the current system in Philly is operating well below capacity.

We can't be comparing ourselves to current trends or to cities other than NYC. They are our real competition when it comes to public transportation and considering that they are the only other East Coast city in the Top 5 in population, they are exactly who we should be trying to learn from. We currently as a metro are doing things that places like NYC did decades ago. It may seem weird but that's exactly what's happening. We need to follow their lead and build a comprehensive subway system, no more El tracks or trolley lines unless it's in the suburbs. We need everything in and around Philly to be underground.

The problem is that NYC didn't do this as a city. It was done by the New York Central railroad company, or parts of it was at least.

It wasn't just "the city" who built Philly's rail, subway and streetcar system in the first place either. Reading RR, Pennsylvania RR, various streetcar companies, and even people like John Wanamaker helped out. If they do undertake a big infrastructure expansion project in Philly in the modern era, they'll have to make deals with the state, the federal government, unions, corporations, etc the same way NYC has in recent times. And it's going to be a long slow messy expensive process. Look what Boston had to drag through to get the Big Dig done, and that was with a much more supportive state government than PA.
And it's not SimCity - whether a hypothetical subway system expansion happens in Philly in the form of underground or above ground rail (and there is LOTS of elevated and surface rail in the NYC subway system within the city, by the way) will depend on the ridership, funding, and local conditions.