DA Drops Murder Charge in Schellenger Case (Newtown: crime, live)

[NewtownBucks]

https://www.fox29.com/news/judge-dro...D7nOJjX49tpu80

There have been a lot of different accounts of this case, so I'm not exactly sure what to think of it. Whether this is murder or manslaughter would be easier for me to say if we knew which one was the original aggressor and whether or not Schellenger made the racial statements he's accused of but I haven't heard anyone other than White corroborate. I think my personal opinion in the absence of that information is that it should be murder for the simple fact that it was White who introduced the deadly weapon to the confrontation. If he didn't take the knife out at all, there would be no homicide at all. But Krasner knows more than I do, so hopefully, he's doing the right thing.

[1ondoner]

For murder, the DA has to prove there was prior intent to kill. Like say, he stabbed directly into the heart. I also think the conviction has to be a unanimous decision by the jury. IMHO, murder would have been a defective charge.

[Sammy215267]

I feel this case is alot esp. because the other person is dead. I do feel the man should have not got out the car and started to charge at the young man and tackle him. My argument in that is that i believe the young man probably did fear for his life..particularly if a drunk man is charging and attacking him. Do i think he should have murdered him ? No....though the young man was defending himself...i think there was rage and a rush that happened and if you are in a fight you will pick up anything to try and save your life.

I've seen a few people ask "Why did he have a knife on him? " which annoyed me so much because i don't even think that is relevant .... the guy worked delivering food on his bike and in my head someone could attack him anytime or try to kill him at any give time. I asked if it had been a older lady with the knife would those such questions be asked ?

[Flyers Girl]

Originally Posted by 1ondoner

For murder, the DA has to prove there was prior intent to kill. Like say, he stabbed directly into the heart. I also think the conviction has to be a unanimous decision by the jury. IMHO, murder would have been a defective charge.

A small nit to pick with the above. "Premeditation," or what you call prior intent to kill, is only necessary for first degree murder. White was being charged with third degree murder. Also, all criminal proceedings (not just murder trials) require unanimous decision by the jury. The only time a majority is acceptable is in civil proceedings.

That said, I agree with Newtown Bucks that, in the absence of more information, Krasner's explanation seems plausible to me. A prosecutor wants the best chance for a conviction and the requisite punishment; if voluntary manslaughter gets justice for the deceased, then I'm all for it.

[NewtownBucks]

Originally Posted by Sammy215267

I feel this case is alot esp. because the other person is dead. I do feel the man should have not got out the car and started to charge at the young man and tackle him. My argument in that is that i believe the young man probably did fear for his life..particularly if a drunk man is charging and attacking him. Do i think he should have murdered him ? No....though the young man was defending himself...i think there was rage and a rush that happened and if you are in a fight you will pick up anything to try and save your life.

I've seen a few people ask "Why did he have a knife on him? " which annoyed me so much because i don't even think that is relevant .... the guy worked delivering food on his bike and in my head someone could attack him anytime or try to kill him at any give time. I asked if it had been a older lady with the knife would those such questions be asked ?

Schellenger charged him after the knife was drawn. As far as I can tell, this is the chain of events:

* Schellenger's friend is having a discussion with someone else outside the car (sometimes characterized as "argument", sometimes not).
* White injects himself into the discussion, although it's not clear why, and Schellenger gets out of the car to confront him and they argue.
* White pulls a knife out during the argument
* Schellenger attacks White and attempts to tackle him.
* White stabs Schellenger once in the back during the tackle.
* White runs away.
* Schellenger dies.

At some point during the argument with Schellenger, White says Schellenger used racial slurs and said he was going to "beat the black off him". No one to my knowledge has corroborated this. There is also disagreement about who was the aggressor and originally escalated the argument into a physical confrontation.

[NewtownBucks]

Originally Posted by Flyers Girl

A small nit to pick with the above. "Premeditation," or what you call prior intent to kill, is only necessary for first degree murder. White was being charged with third degree murder. Also, all criminal proceedings (not just murder trials) require unanimous decision by the jury. The only time a majority is acceptable is in civil proceedings.

The legal standard for third degree murder is "malice aforethought", which is a lesser degree of premeditation than intent to kill (i.e. first degree) where you just have to know that what your're about to do can kill the person before you do it.

Originally Posted by Flyers Girl

That said, I agree with Newtown Bucks that, in the absence of more information, Krasner's explanation seems plausible to me. A prosecutor wants the best chance for a conviction and the requisite punishment; if voluntary manslaughter gets justice for the deceased, then I'm all for it.

Well, I don't claim to be a legal expert, but in my layman's opinion, the fact that he had drawn the knife before Schellenger physically attacked him (which is my understanding of the timeline) should qualify as malice aforethought and therefore third degree murder. If he had reached in his bag and grabbed the knife and stabbed him after being attacked, that would be more likely to be the lesser charge IMO. In other words, he pulled the deadly weapon out before being tackled knowing that if he stabbed the guy, he could kill him. But again, Krasner and his team are the legal experts, not me. This is the legal code for manslaughter:

§ 2503. Voluntary manslaughter.

(a) General rule.--A person who kills an individual without lawful justification commits voluntary manslaughter if at the time of the killing he is acting under a sudden and intense passion resulting from serious provocation by:

(1) the individual killed; or

(2) another whom the actor endeavors to kill, but he negligently or accidentally causes the death of the individual killed.

That seems like a slam dunk case.

The penalty for murder is 20-40 years. For voluntary manslaughter is 10-20. If he gets 15-20 years or something, that seems like an appropriate penalty for what happened. That's not nothing. He seems like a kid struggling with anger issues from a difficult childhood who made a terrible mistake. Hopefully, he can use his time for education and to be a better person when he gets out.

[PHL10]

Sammy, maybe you can provide a source and link for your version of events but the summary you provided is not in agreement with what I recall reading in the Inquirer.

Newtown's summary seems more inline with the facts. I think the initial argument that involved neither Schellenger nor White was between Schellenger's friend and a person who was blocking the street with their car. White then decided to intervene on behalf of the person blocking the street for wherever reason - that's one reason why carrying the knife is a problem Sammy. You can't go looking for fights and then claim your illegal weapon was for self defense.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by Sammy215267

I feel this case is alot esp. because the other person is dead. I do feel the man should have not got out the car and started to charge at the young man and tackle him. My argument in that is that i believe the young man probably did fear for his life..particularly if a drunk man is charging and attacking him. Do i think he should have murdered him ? No....though the young man was defending himself...i think there was rage and a rush that happened and if you are in a fight you will pick up anything to try and save your life.

I've seen a few people ask "Why did he have a knife on him? " which annoyed me so much because i don't even think that is relevant .... the guy worked delivering food on his bike and in my head someone could attack him anytime or try to kill him at any give time. I asked if it had been a older lady with the knife would those such questions be asked ?

You may want to brush-up on the actual facts of this case. The facts you have are nowhere close to what happened.

Also, as discussed in the Philly Crime thread at or around the time of this incident, carrying a concealed knife, in this case a large 7'' knife, is illegal. White was charged in late 2017 with, among other things, ''possession of instrument of crime with intent'' meaning this same concealed knife he was again carrying with him in July 2018 when he confronted Schellenger.

The fact that White chose to bike deliver food in Center City etc is not a legal excuse for carrying a concealed 7'' Rambo knife. No one, including an ''older lady'' with a concealed knife would be excused. Also, when is the last time you heard of an ''older lady'' getting into a knife fight to ward off an assailant?

The only rage and a rush that happened here is that White saw a white male ''having words'' with a black motorist blocking traffic on 17th street. This rage resulted in White inserting himself into a situation that in no way involved him. The black motorist drove off as White confronted Schellenger with his ''why do you have to be such a tough guy'' opening line. Pulling out the Rambo knife and using it with such force and anger that White plunged it full-hilt (7'') into Schellenger's back. If anything, Schellenger was defending himself. Also, there's a video of this incident that the public hasn't seen. Wonder why?

If bike food delivery is such an inherently dangerous occupation, find a new career. By all accounts, White is or was an angry young man; among other things he was apparently beside himself that the world wasn't aware of his brilliant rap talent at 20 years old. You know, because becoming an international rap or hip-hop star by age 20 is such an easy thing that just happens to anyone.

[1ondoner]

I think I said it before, this was a avoidable situation and the outcome reflects the character of both individuals. 2 bad guys had a chance meeting in the middle of the night, and one idiot ended up in the morgue while the other idiot will end up in jail.

There is no good guy vs bad guy in this ugly situation.

[PHL10]

^^^ I think the situation here deserves a bit more nuance. The "bad" behaviors of the two are clearly not equal. I've been tempted to use physical force on some occasions over the years. I have NEVER been tempted to pull out a knife and plunge it into someone's back and kill them.