Trying to move (Phoenix: live, move to, transport)

[OnYourSide]

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Many people have left the Phoenix area because of the unemployment picture. Arizona has the 8th worst U-6 unemployment rate in country.

If I were you, I would take a look at parts of the country where government spending is taking place. This could be around cities with large military bases such as in Texas, and of course Washington D.C. Follow your heart, but also keep in mind the real economic prospects that drive why it is that you have to leave.

[Ritchie_az]

Arizona has the 8th worst U-6 unemployment rate in country.

As of June, Arizona has the 33rd worst unemployment rate (tied with New Jersey) at 9.6%. California is 49th at 12.3%. "U-6 unemployment" includes "under employed" people. It's better to be under employed and have a job than unemployed and not have a job.

[Ritchie_az]

BTW, the states with the lowest unemployment rates:
N. Dakota 3.6%
S. Dakota 4.5%
Nebraska 4.8%
New Hampshire 5.9%
Vermont 6%
Hawaii 6.3%
Kansas 6.5%
Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Wyoming 6.8%

Those are the states I'd start with if I were looking for a job.

[phxgreenfire]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Right, but what about those things? Seems very subjective. And what about what's not on the list? Crime? Cost of living? Taxes? Homeless populations? Etc?

How are those subjective? I didn't make the credentials, they did. And this whole tax thing really annoys me about Phoenix. It's like people just accept you have to be taxed, but don't want them spent on anything. And seriously, go back and look at those factors in each category and see if you can pick name 10 things (where applicable) about New York and London, then see if you can do the same for Phoenix. Can you name 10 international corporations with a headquarters here? Can you name 10 world-renowned cultural institutions? Phoenix is definitely NOT in the same ballpark as those other cities.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

To you (and I guess the GaWC, too). I've lived in a few of those cities listed higher than Phoenix, and I think Phoenix is better. I guess it depends on what is important to you.

Right. And a lot of what I want isn't here. I have to be honest, you're starting to remind me of that crab on The Little Mermaid when he was singing about why living under the sea is so great.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

"Progressive" is liberal.

Not necessarily. Find a picture of Shanghai in 1990 and find a picture of it now. That is not a liberal city, but it is progressive. If it were liberal you'd see a culture more like San Francisco's... but it is definitely not open-minded.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Yeah, thanks, but no thanks!

That's fine too. Phoenix can go the way of Detroit and it already seems to be on that path.

Originally Posted by OnYourSide

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Many people have left the Phoenix area because of the unemployment picture. Arizona has the 8th worst U-6 unemployment rate in country.

If I were you, I would take a look at parts of the country where government spending is taking place. This could be around cities with large military bases such as in Texas, and of course Washington D.C. Follow your heart, but also keep in mind the real economic prospects that drive why it is that you have to leave.

I'm not surprised a lot of people have left. The unemployment thing is bad, but even before it all fell apart I had extreme difficulty finding a job in my field as much as I tried to make it work. Over the past couple years my perspective of the city has deteriorated and now I'd rather just go.

Economic circumstances are driving me to leave, but there are plenty of things I don't care for. I would agree with you though and say that all things job-related are the absolute number one reason I want to go.

[Ritchie_az]

How are those subjective?

Let's see, "political influence": liberal cities get high marks, conservative cities get low marks. Ok, "diverse populations": lot's of homosexuals = high rankings, few homosexuals = low rankings. Now, "expats": european and asian gets you high marks, african and central american gets you low marks.
This is just in the first catagory. It's all subjective. Now I'm not saying that is specifically how they ranked the cities, because they don't tell you, but it does illustrate that those are highly subjective things. And since we know the group has an agenda, it's safe to say that they will be subjective to the side of that agenda.

And this whole tax thing really annoys me about Phoenix.

Most people don't like paying through the teeth in taxes. Most people like keeping as much of what they earn as possible and spend it the way they want to spend it. But there are places that will gladly take as much money as possible out of your pocket. San Fran is a great example. Usually those places also have high cost of livings, which, in and of itself, drives down quality of life.

go back and look at those factors in each category and see if you can pick name 10 things (where applicable) about New York and London, then see if you can do the same for Phoenix.

Did you want me to list 10 things Phoenix has that those cities don't? Or only 10 things those cities have that Phoenix doesn't?
Cities and towns are a lot like people. No two people are alike and no two cities are alike. I never understood why people come here and then want Phoenix to be just like this place or that place. Those places aren't Phoenix and Phoenix isn't those places. They are each unique, and we should be celebrating that and not condemning it.

Can you name 10 world-renowned cultural institutions?

Don't know how "world renown" they are (I could care less if the world "renowns" them or not), but here are some:
Phoenix Art Museum, Phoenix Symphany Hall, Desert Botanical Gardens, ASU art center, Wildlife World Zoo... I'm sure there are many more, this is off the top of my head.

I have to be honest, you're starting to remind me of that crab on The Little Mermaid when he was singing about why living under the sea is so great.

To lots of people, "living under the sea" is great, it's their dream come true. Why is that bad?

Not necessarily. Find a picture of Shanghai in 1990 and find a picture of it now. That is not a liberal city, but it is progressive. If it were liberal you'd see a culture more like San Francisco's... but it is definitely not open-minded.

You're going to tell me that communist China is not liberal? Communism is just a little left of socialism.

That's fine too. Phoenix can go the way of Detroit and it already seems to be on that path.

But you forget that Detroit and Phoenix are so much different. Pollitcally, culterally, demographically, geographically, etc., there's very little comparison. In fact, Phoenix's unemployment is 8.6% while Detroit's is 12.1% LA's? 11.4%. Sounds like, economically, Detroit and L.A. have quite a bit in common. Oh, they both also had some nasty riots, too....

[phxgreenfire]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Let's see, "political influence": liberal cities get high marks, conservative cities get low marks. Ok, "diverse populations": lot's of homosexuals = high rankings, few homosexuals = low rankings. Now, "expats": european and asian gets you high marks, african and central american gets you low marks.
This is just in the first catagory. It's all subjective. Now I'm not saying that is specifically how they ranked the cities, because they don't tell you, but it does illustrate that those are highly subjective things. And since we know the group has an agenda, it's safe to say that they will be subjective to the side of that agenda.

Really you're just interpreting things through your own psyche. How does lots of diversity automatically mean a lot of GLBT people? I would again have to dispute that, according to the Census Bureau's American Community Survey: http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/samesexcouplesandglbpopacs.pdf (broken link)

What's that? The City of Phoenix ranks 5th most populous in GLBT couples and the metro area is pretty high too. Uh oh... better cover your kids' eyes. As for expats, check out where LA and Miami rank on that list, both of which have large Latin American communities. As for Africans, I'm sure there are sizable communities in cities that ranked higher. And what, exactly, is this university's agenda? If there's anything I'd miss about Phoenix it would be hearing the absolutely insane, militia-minded, tin-foil-hat ideas I hear quite regularly living here. They're good for a laugh.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Most people don't like paying through the teeth in taxes. Most people like keeping as much of what they earn as possible and spend it the way they want to spend it. But there are places that will gladly take as much money as possible out of your pocket. San Fran is a great example. Usually those places also have high cost of livings, which, in and of itself, drives down quality of life.

I can tell they don't in Arizona. Who owns the capitol now? They sold it to a private investor to make money, but I don't know if I ever heard who bought it. If I lived in San Francisco, I'd gladly pay taxes for roads, bridges, the BART and all that. I seem to recall a lot of moronic comments about light rail too, like when it will bring in money (what public transit does?) and that it stops too much (what public transit doesn't?) and that it doesn't cover enough ground (and here we are, how do we pay for that...?)

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Did you want me to list 10 things Phoenix has that those cities don't? Or only 10 things those cities have that Phoenix doesn't?
Cities and towns are a lot like people. No two people are alike and no two cities are alike. I never understood why people come here and then want Phoenix to be just like this place or that place. Those places aren't Phoenix and Phoenix isn't those places. They are each unique, and we should be celebrating that and not condemning it.

I absolutely do not want you to list 10 things Phoenix has those cities don't, because I'll puke if I hear low taxes, cheap housing and lots of sun one more time. I meant tit-for-tat in those three cities. Corporate heads in Phoenix, New York and London should be easy. International institutions won't be for Phoenix. And you can't really measure economic influence, personal wealth or financial output in any way except by dollars, and Phoenix will definitely come up short there.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Don't know how "world renown" they are (I could care less if the world "renowns" them or not), but here are some:
Phoenix Art Museum, Phoenix Symphany Hall, Desert Botanical Gardens, ASU art center, Wildlife World Zoo... I'm sure there are many more, this is off the top of my head.

They aren't renowned. Perhaps the closest to having any fame would be the Heard Museum, but I think people would still have to come across that and not just overhear it on TV, in a movie or whatever and know what it is. Not compared to the Guggenheim, MoMA, the Met, Carnegie Hall and such.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

To lots of people, "living under the sea" is great, it's their dream come true. Why is that bad?

Phoenix is mostly there with so many houses underwater. (rim shot)

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

You're going to tell me that communist China is not liberal? Communism is just a little left of socialism.

Will you see gay pride parades in Shanghai? Why don't you look up the punishment for marijuana possession in China too. What about women's rights? Euthanasia? Eh... China is definitely not liberal. Neither is Dubai, but it's pretty high up on that list too. In this case, progressive means doing what Arizona leaders can never do: act in the best interest of the city or state. Chinese leaders thought of ways to progress their cities, to nurture companies, to get millions of people moving and they built some beautiful cities out of virtually nothing. Because Phoenix doesn't want to progress, we're left with an ugly, nearly endless sprawl of identical neighborhoods. Which one is the dystopia?

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

But you forget that Detroit and Phoenix are so much different. Pollitcally, culterally, demographically, geographically, etc., there's very little comparison. In fact, Phoenix's unemployment is 8.6% while Detroit's is 12.1% LA's? 11.4%. Sounds like, economically, Detroit and L.A. have quite a bit in common. Oh, they both also had some nasty riots, too....

Why is Phoenix' unemployment so low? You won't think this, but isn't it possible with so many people living here from elsewhere their safety nets are out of state? Out-of-work people leaving Arizona would certainly keep the rate lower. I heard part of Detroit's problem is people don't necessarily have the means to leave or wish to wait it out because they have ties to the community. When a place like Phoenix grows the way it did, people won't have the same kind of ties to the community. Detroit and LA had riots, as did Chicago, Tulsa, a lot of cities in the Deep South and a total of 149 cities after Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated. You'd be a fool to think that can't and won't happen here.

[Ritchie_az]

Really you're just interpreting things through your own psyche. How does lots of diversity automatically mean a lot of GLBT people?

It has nothing to do with that other than to illustrate how the GaWC's criteria is too general and highly subjective. If I made that up out of thin air, imagine what else could be used when interpreting "diverse populations". Is it diverse in thought? Diverse in skin color? Diverse in sexual orientation? Diverse in political views? Diverse in income? Diverse in hair color? What about the population is diverse? Without being specific and open about it, who knows what criteria was used or how they interpret "diverse populations".
That was my point.

And what, exactly, is this university's agenda?

The GaWC's agenda is no borders, one world government. Here's quote from my earlier post:
"'GaWC is part of a research program, which is dedicated to overcoming embedded statism.' In this case, 'statism' is defined as having borders, nations and cultures (or 'states'). In other words, to them, the U.S. is a 'state', Canada is a 'state', etc., and they don't agree with that because we are all globally connected. One world, one world government, one world culture.

I'm curious, you never answered my question (which I asked twice), how much of their website did you read?

Phoenix is mostly there with so many houses underwater. (rim shot)

Yeah, and so are so many other places, too, including L.A.

China is definitely not liberal.

It's not socially liberal. But is that your only definition of "liberal"?

I absolutely do not want you to list 10 things Phoenix has those cities don't, because I'll puke if I hear low taxes, cheap housing and lots of sun one more time. I meant tit-for-tat in those three cities. Corporate heads in Phoenix, New York and London should be easy. International institutions won't be for Phoenix. And you can't really measure economic influence, personal wealth or financial output in any way except by dollars, and Phoenix will definitely come up short there.

Like I said, Phoenix is it's own unique city and New York and London are their own unique cities. To expect them to be all the same is a complete disservice to the divercity of this world and of this nation. We should be celebrating the things that are unique to here and not condemning them (just because they're not the same things as New York or London). Seems pretty narrow minded, if you ask me.

They aren't renowned.

So what? They're good. That's what matters, right? Who cares if some college student in France has ever heard of them.

Why is Phoenix' unemployment so low?

Because the economic plight of Phoenix has been exaggerated. Yes, Phoenix's economy was hit hard. Yes, a lot of people lost their jobs. But it's not nearly as bad as some would have you think. L.A.'s economy is worse than Phoenix. But it didn't fall nearly as far as Phoenix's did, so it makes for a less sensational story. That doesn't change the fact that L.A.'s jobless rate is still significantly worse than Phoenix's.

Because Phoenix doesn't want to progress, we're left with an ugly, nearly endless sprawl of identical neighborhoods.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's actually one of the things I like about Phoenix.

[phxgreenfire]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

It has nothing to do with that other than to illustrate how the GaWC's criteria is too general and highly subjective. If I made that up out of thin air, imagine what else could be used when interpreting "diverse populations". Is it diverse in thought? Diverse in skin color? Diverse in sexual orientation? Diverse in political views? Diverse in income? Diverse in hair color? What about the population is diverse? Without being specific and open about it, who knows what criteria was used or how they interpret "diverse populations".
That was my point.

Typically diverse means a lot of ethnic and cultural mixing within a city. The GLBT community is part of a subculture. And that comment made me slap my forehead. Strip away everything about a city and look at their bare essentials and how they function in the world. So in other words, look at what makes them work. Seriously, they're not all so different from each that you can't do that.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

The GaWC's agenda is no borders, one world government. Here's quote from my earlier post:
"'GaWC is part of a research program, which is dedicated to overcoming embedded statism.' In this case, 'statism' is defined as having borders, nations and cultures (or 'states'). In other words, to them, the U.S. is a 'state', Canada is a 'state', etc., and they don't agree with that because we are all globally connected. One world, one world government, one world culture.
I'm curious, you never answered my question (which I asked twice), how much of their website did you read?

I think it's funny you read that so literally. Ha ha. Explain to me the agenda part, because that is more or less a philosophical approach. And I thought it was obvious with my response earlier, but if I was able to find the factors they used to classify and categorize cities and you weren't... well, obviously I made it further through than you did.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Yeah, and so are so many other places, too, including L.A.

And when the recession is over, Phoenix will be right back where it was and if I wanted to stay here, I'd still be struggling to find the job I want.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

It's not socially liberal. But is that your only definition of "liberal"?

It isn't, but that was the case I was using it in. Is liberal your only definition of progressive?

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Like I said, Phoenix is it's own unique city and New York and London are their own unique cities. To expect them to be all the same is a complete disservice to the divercity of this world and of this nation. We should be celebrating the things that are unique to here and not condemning them (just because they're not the same things as New York or London). Seems pretty narrow minded, if you ask me.

It isn't asking them to be the same. New York and London are vastly different, though if you analyze them as this group did they are the same. Hong Kong and Paris are in the same category too... I've been to all four of those cities and none of them are really the same. I still think you're missing the point of that study. Really, I'm starting to think you're a) in denial about something, b) overcompensating, so you started a pissing contest with me, or c) delusional. Nowhere in that survey did it condemn Phoenix... it just stated that Phoenix is lacking. If you like the city, fine. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

So what? They're good. That's what matters, right? Who cares if some college student in France has ever heard of them.

Locally, I've only been to the Phoenix Art Museum and I would say it's decent.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Because the economic plight of Phoenix has been exaggerated. Yes, Phoenix's economy was hit hard. Yes, a lot of people lost their jobs. But it's not nearly as bad as some would have you think. L.A.'s economy is worse than Phoenix. But it didn't fall nearly as far as Phoenix's did, so it makes for a less sensational story. That doesn't change the fact that L.A.'s jobless rate is still significantly worse than Phoenix's.

It is for now. What will you say when it gets worse? Arizona is certain to break 10% this year.

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That's actually one of the things I like about Phoenix.

If that pleases you, fine. There's nothing about it that appeals to me.

I don't even know why you're obsessing over this whole study anyway. I originally posted the question because I know so many people in Phoenix are from somewhere else and if I have to take a job here before I can move, I was wondering how they were able to get around their old jobs and get to an interview here. While I appreciate that a moderator hasn't trimmed anything out because I'm against censorship and could really care less if it goes way off topic... I still wonder what this whole thing is about. I know people usually come here with their minds made up and just want affirmation, and you could say I'm no different. I've got my mind set on leaving this trash heap and I'm just trying to see what people's stories are in the event I have to settle for something here.

[Ritchie_az]

Typically diverse means a lot of ethnic and cultural mixing within a city.

I didn't ask what it "typically means". I asked what does it mean to the GaWC and their grading of world cities. What specifically were they looking at to give one city an "Alpha++" and another "Gamma-"? They just list some very broad things that could be interpreted any number of ways. A different organization could list the exact same criteria and place the cities in radically different orders. And that's because it's relative.

well, obviously I made it further through than you did.

I spent almost two hours today reading who they are, what they are doing, what's their mission, etc. A lot of it is long dissertations and papers. What GaWC is trying to do (what they are all about) is bring about social change in which there are no borders. They explained it like seeing the Earth from space, you can't see where one country ends and another begins. They want the way people see the world to be like that. No borders, no country's (or, as they call it, "states"), just one world. That's why I question their list. I'm not saying any city on there is bad. But the cities are graded by which one's are closer to being culturally/socially "borderless" or "global" (or, at least, as they see it). Grade "Alpha++" means that the city is ready for a one-world, borderless, global society. "Gamma-"? They still have a ways to go.

And when the recession is over, Phoenix will be right back where it was and if I wanted to stay here, I'd still be struggling to find the job I want.

When I was a Train Dispatcher, there were only a handful of cities in the country I could do that job in. Phoenix wasn't one of them (a big part of the reason I'm no longer a Train Dispatcher). Sometimes you gotta go where the work is. Sometimes you gotta change your career. I've done both before.

I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine.

I'm not trying to. I said my peace at the beginning of this thread. But when I saw this GaWC list and read who they are and what they are trying to do, I could not help but comment.

Locally, I've only been to the Phoenix Art Museum and I would say it's decent.

I've been to a few museums here. Not all of them yet. The one's I've been to were pretty good.

It is for now. What will you say when it gets worse? Arizona is certain to break 10% this year.

Actually, I think the worst may be over. I am a little concerned about the Bush tax cuts expiring....

I've got my mind set on leaving this trash heap

You mean, this "High Suffeciancy" global city, right?

Again, good luck in your job hunt and potential move.

[phxgreenfire]

It sounds like GaWC is interested in globalization. That's just the way the world is today and it's been going on for centuries. Because that's the way of the world, cities either have to adapt or do whatever else. Ideally I want to stay in my field, but will adapt to something else if I must. Some things are definite negatives: anything related to math, tech stuff, sales/customer service or health care. Either I don't have the knowledge/skills or know I would be extremely bad at it. I think the worst is about to get started in Arizona and by this time next year I can't imagine life here. And I guess if we'll label Phoenix that we can... another interesting thing is that those rankings can go up or down. A place like Alexandria, Egypt would have been higher on the list a few thousand years ago, but doesn't make it now.

And thank you for your well-wishes.