Death Of MetroCenter

[pbenjamin]

It's clearly not what it was, but my wife goes to the Dillards' Clearance Center there once or twice a year. I think the safety issues are overblown. If we want to go to a full service mall, though, we will go to PV Mall or Scottsdale Fashion Square, both of which are farther away. Biltmore Fashion Park is closer to us but doesn't quite have critical mass, ok if you just need Macy's or the Apple Store. Christown is only useful for Target and Costco. (I refuse to do business with Walmart.)

[43north87west]

Originally Posted by randian

Only if your "one or two things" are right next to each other. And you must frequently park "six miles away" anyway, unless you're going to an unpopular shop. Other than that it sucks to be at an outdoor mall anywhere in the Sunbelt or Southeast during their long hot seasons. Shoppers there are punished with blistering heat and/or humidity you must suffer going from storefront to storefront in an outdoor mall. Outdoor malls in those areas make no sense until you realize it it's all about A/C costs, not any alleged convenience for the shopper.

Not talking about clusters of big box stores tossed up at the edges of outer ring suburbs, and referred to as "outdoor shopping areas" just because they were landscaped the same way and some decorative concrete sidewalks connect a couple of buildings.

Malls that die aren't being rebuilt in this country. That's all there is to it. Ones that aren't doing well, but are in otherwise good areas, are being converted into outdoor centers, for a number of reasons. The upscale "lifestyle center" shopping areas, are outperforming regional malls with the same stores, because shoppers spend about 50% more per shopper at lifestyle centers, than shoppers at regional malls. And almost half of the upscale lifestyle center shoppers don't ever shop at regional malls anyway. The lifestyle center concepts have matured significantly, capitalizing on the weak spots of regional malls and early outdoor shopping areas (distant parking, inconvenient shopping, ill conceived layouts).

In addition, indoor malls can be their own worst enemies. Difficult and expensive to remodel, difficult to keep occupied, cost prohibitive common area maintenance, and virtually useless as anything but a retail facility. The outdoor areas are much more flexible and configurable, and appeal to a large number of people who avoid normal malls in the first place.

The OP isn't far off the mark when they suggest bulldozing: As an example of the prohibitive cost structure of the old school shopping malls, Metrocenter cost around 100 million to build in the 1970s, but sold last time around, for 12 million. Actually 12.2 million--don't want to leave off the last $200k. That's just a touch over 1% of its highest value, and a whopping 2% of its original construction cost, when adjusted for inflation. And Metrocenter isn't unique, either.

[Valley Native]

I remember when Metrocenter was built in the early 1970s: it seemed to be the envy not only Phoenix, but Arizona, the west, and even the entire nation. For that time, it was a huge mall and very unique. In the last decade or so, the mall and the area around it has gone downhill. I was at one of the restaurants in the mall circle last weekend, and the whole area seemed almost completely deserted. Castles & Coasters was dead, and the mall didn't seem to be attracting a lot of activity. Many neighborhoods around Metrocenter have deteriorated.

It's too bad because I actually prefer indoor malls vs. the latest trend of power centers. The main reason is the sun & heat factor. You can walk around an air conditioned indoor mall in the middle of summer and stay cool. That concept really makes a lot more sense in a place like the Phoenix area.

[azriverfan.]

Metrocenter would have failed in the 1970's as well if there was the same number of malls back then as there is today. It's fallen to competition plain and simple. People have too many choices and ones closer to them. Fiesta Mall declined in the same way. Fiesta Mall was a very nice mall in the late 90's but then Chandler Fashion Center arose and it stole it's customer base. San Tan Village arose and stole some of the clientele from Chandler Fashion Center and many stores at Chandler Mall left for San Tan Village. When that new high fashion outlet emerges in Chandler, it's going to steal customers from Chandler mall and cause even further erosion of Arizona Mills. Metrocenter doesn't offer weak stores by choice, they do it to survive because it has to cater to it's customers and guess who shops there! It's ultimately going to die and I think it should be bulldozed and allow Castles and Coasters to expand and offer new rides and become somewhat of a real amusement park.

Indoor vs Outdoor malls....sorry but Indoor malls are still superior. As an example, San Tan Village is a very nice and upscale shopping center but in the summer, it's dead! The heat just causes that shopping center to look like a ghost town in the summer with the exception of Friday and Saturday night whereas Chandler Fashion Square is still really busy in the summer. However, San Tan Village seems busier than Chandler Fashion Square in the winter because it seems to offer a better store selection overall. I can see the appeal of an outdoor mall but indoor malls are still superior in Arizona due to the weather.

[azriverfan.]

Originally Posted by 43north87west

Malls that die aren't being rebuilt in this country. That's all there is to it. Ones that aren't doing well, but are in otherwise good areas, are being converted into outdoor centers, for a number of reasons. The upscale "lifestyle center" shopping areas, are outperforming regional malls with the same stores, because shoppers spend about 50% more per shopper at lifestyle centers, than shoppers at regional malls. And almost half of the upscale lifestyle center shoppers don't ever shop at regional malls anyway. The lifestyle center concepts have matured significantly, capitalizing on the weak spots of regional malls and early outdoor shopping areas (distant parking, inconvenient shopping, ill conceived layouts).

In addition, indoor malls can be their own worst enemies. Difficult and expensive to remodel, difficult to keep occupied, cost prohibitive common area maintenance, and virtually useless as anything but a retail facility. The outdoor areas are much more flexible and configurable, and appeal to a large number of people who avoid normal malls in the first place.

I disagree with some of your points. The parking at outdoor malls are not more convenient than indoor malls. You still have to park far away in a large lot or a parking garage. There is no such a thing as a "lifestyle center". The outdoor malls offer the same variety of stores as indoor malls to cater to as large of a demographic as possible. "Upscale lifestyle shoppers" shop where the stores are whether it's indoor or outdoor. It really doesn't matter to them, they go where the stores are. Indoor malls offer the advantage of being an aerobic center for the elderly and people who want to walk extensively without worrying about the elements. There are hundreds of teenagers who use the mall to socialize so it's absurd to say that they are only being used as a retail center. I don't think people see an outdoor mall as being so different than an indoor mall from an image standpoint. I think most people still recognize them as malls and don't feel some special status that they are shopping at an "outdoor lifestyle center" Most people are intelligent enough to get that it's a mall but one that is simply outside.

[Desertspiritsteve]

I keep watching Arcadia Crossing (Thomas Mall where I sold leisure suits at Diamond's in 70's). There's a real problem for tenants to stay alive around the Sears store. Costco is always busy, Fry's supermarket is usually busy and the Target store runs hot and cold. Maybe we don't have enough anchors stores left to go around. Costco, Amazon and Neweggdotcom pretty much get my spending money. There is a really old Fry's store at around 60th. St. and Thomas at the Scottsdale city limits. I love that place with it old fixtures. I drive from west of Central to this store because it makes me feels good. Sometimes there is light classical playing softly in the background.

[43north87west]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

I disagree with some of your points. The parking at outdoor malls are not more convenient than indoor malls. You still have to park far away in a large lot or a parking garage. There is no such a thing as a "lifestyle center". The outdoor malls offer the same variety of stores as indoor malls to cater to as large of a demographic as possible. "Upscale lifestyle shoppers" shop where the stores are whether it's indoor or outdoor. It really doesn't matter to them, they go where the stores are. Indoor malls offer the advantage of being an aerobic center for the elderly and people who want to walk extensively without worrying about the elements. There are hundreds of teenagers who use the mall to socialize so it's absurd to say that they are only being used as a retail center. I don't think people see an outdoor mall as being so different than an indoor mall from an image standpoint. I think most people still recognize them as malls and don't feel some special status that they are shopping at an "outdoor lifestyle center" Most people are intelligent enough to get that it's a mall but one that is simply outside.

Those aren't my points and I didn't coin the name, either.

If you want to contest what developers and retailers have found--better performance per square foot in lifestyle centers, and a large number of shoppers who don't ever shop at regional malls--call the developers and retailers who made the determination in the first place. Set them straight about intelligent shoppers, octogenarian mall walkers, and bored teens.

[kell490]

I moved to 39th ave and Dunlap in 1994 Metrocenter was a very nice mall what happened was the area around Metrocenter during the boom turned into a investors boom. My neighborhood was basically older retired people who bought the homes in the 60-70's lived there until they died off. In 2003-4 I saw a change the area began to be sold off as these older folks died off to investors my whole neighborhood was up for sale. The investors came in and rented them out to anyone. The house down the street was basically rented by teenagers who sold drugs. All I heard was Harley's racing up and down 39th ave, and loud bass from booming stereo's. The drug house in 2001 was shot up at 2am by guys shooting AK-47's which rounds went flying into cactus wren Wren's elementary school lucky it was late at night. The house next door was rented to anyone with a pulse who caused me all kinds of trouble. Metrocenter became a hangout for teens thugs that had no money to buy anything. The parking lot was known for robbery's and holdup's gangster looking teens roamed the mall. It's not a surprise that the stores left my wife always committed on how everything was locked down like purses and other stuff.