Why so few upgrades/remodels in Phoenix? (Mesa, Scottsdale: 2014, home builder)

[Ponderosa]

There are no "Phoenix" kitchens or bathrooms. Almost everything you see in tract homes from 1990 on is from styles and builders who took over the local market from Southern California. The same builders have the same floor plans and elevations in the new homes they build in Riverside and eastern SD counties. I understand that easterners can have some trouble adapting to the look. But I, as a long time zonie, find homes in the eastern/midwest US to look a little goofy too.

[DetroitN8V]

Here's your Phoenix kitchen and master bath. I agree, they're everywhere and they're awful.





The main cause of the shell shock that people from back east feel when looking at houses here, has to do with the age of houses in the valley. Back east, it is very rare to see a house with an original kitchen since they are from the 1920-60s. It's not nearly as far of a stretch here with houses built in the 90s and later.

[Montanama]

Detroit--Staggered Cabinets, full cabinet island, frosted glass--those are upgrades
Good point. Maybe the "sameness" is just a result of the relative newness of such a HUGE number of homes being built in the same general era. There just hasn't been time to upgrade yet.

Ponderosa, when we say "Phoenix kitchen" we don't mean that it's a Phoenix style, just that it's the same as all the other ones we saw on the Phoenix market.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by JTW2013

Admittedly I think there is something weird about what we've come to see as desirable in a home. I don't remember anyone having fancy kitchens when I was growing up. Everyone had pretty much the same kitchen whether they were middle class or upper middle class (I didn't know any rich people). At some point in the 1990's everyone started wanting granite and stainless steel. I think HGTV played a part in developing these tastes. I find it ironic that both of my grandmothers who actually cooked almost every meal for their families had kitchens that I would deem unacceptable. Also I don't remember people talking about how they were adding much value to their home by remodeling. I think that's an HGTV thing too.

I suspect that part of the reason for the difference between Phoenix and other metros is the availability of cheap land allowing people to keep moving further and further out to find something shiny and new. Here in Chicago there is no development of SFHs in desirable areas anymore. If you're buying a new home, you are pretty far out. So people who live in desirable areas (good schools and close to where people work or transportation to the Loop) update their older homes instead of moving out to the exurbs. I think people are also motivated by a desire to have kitchens and bathrooms that are consistent with the price they paid for the house, e.g. if you buy a $900K 1940's tract house in Wilmette you want a $50K kitchen. $50K out of $900K isn't all that much.

Will things in Phoenix change as there is no less available land? For example, the houses linked above in Gilbert are too far out, IMHO. By the logic that applies to the rest of the country, the homes in the rectangle and the area immediately to the south should start to appreciate simply because of their location and that will gentrify the area (or keep it upscale in the case of South Chandler) and people will start updating their homes.

Far out is relative. If you have moved here since the recession, in particular, you can have no concept of how fast this city developed from nothing. I have said on this forum several times that I lived in Ahwatukee in the early 1980s. When I moved there, all my co-workers were asking why I wanted to live so far out there. I lived in the very northern part near Elliot and 48th Street which is now somewhat crappy but considered convenient. So far out from what? Shopping? Don't worry, you will have to drive to that for a few years but eventually they will bring the mall to you. The old mall will go ghetto and then go dark as the stores close and move away. All of Chandler was nothing but cotton, resort, and some rundown houses when I came here. Gilbert was some trailers surrounded by orange groves and sugar beet fields. So when people move further out here, it is with the expectation that the area will grow around them and they get the bonus, to my thinking at least, of being away from the over-commercialized madness that is the Valley of the Sun. What once was too far out becomes close in and convenient.

There, too, is no shortage of land. Development is shifting to the west side as it bumps against the rez and the national forest in the east. But, there are fields and more fields out west that could hold as many as 5 million more in decades to come.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by Montanama

Detroit--Staggered Cabinets, full cabinet island, frosted glass--those are upgrades
Good point. Maybe the "sameness" is just a result of the relative newness of such a HUGE number of homes being built in the same general era. There just hasn't been time to upgrade yet.

Ponderosa, when we say "Phoenix kitchen" we don't mean that it's a Phoenix style, just that it's the same as all the other ones we saw on the Phoenix market.

Yikes if that's an upgrade!

Here you go. Put your sunglasses on.

[Montanama]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

There are no "Phoenix" kitchens or bathrooms. Almost everything you see in tract homes from 1990 on is from styles and builders who took over the local market from Southern California. The same builders have the same floor plans and elevations in the new homes they build in Riverside and eastern SD counties. I understand that easterners can have some trouble adapting to the look. But I, as a long time zonie, find homes in the eastern/midwest US to look a little goofy too.

When we started our house search, I was after a territorial style home with some pizzazz.

Ha.

Hard to find in all but the highest price range, and even then...

The territorial style homes we did see were either territorial on the outside but same old builder 3/2 split on the inside, were total DIY jobs out in the sticks, or were in PV. Which is outside our target price range, lol. And they were few & far between in any case.

I came around pretty quickly to appreciate the cookie-cutter neighborhoods just fine. Those tile roofs aren't cheap, and I love 'em. So there's a plus in the Phoenix area! There's a tidiness to Phoenix that I enjoy, but it comes at the price of a bit of monotony to the interiors of all these builder homes.

I still look at some of the more "stylish" neighborhoods with a bit of envy, but I came to Phoenix to enjoy my own back yard, and that I do.

Kitchen remodels never have been a good "investment," especially in a large kitchen or when going full-on custom. But I am accustomed to knowing which upgrades/updates are smart and will recoup more money and which won't. (For example, replacing a woefully outdated kitchen increases the value of the home simply by removing the kitchen that was *decreasing* the value to begin with, if you kwim. It's a sure bet in that case.)

In Phoenix I really don't see that I'll get much if anything from the significant upgrade, except a quicker sale which is better than a stick in the eye. I'll also get pleasure from the upgrades we make to our home. It's a small kitchen, and to me it will be worth the work and $$, just the awareness that that's all it is is a new one for me.

[ajonesaz]

Originally Posted by SK115

This made me laugh! You forgot the part about the Phoenix master bath having only an archway (no door) leading in from the master bedroom.

YES! Another deal killer. Not sure if that is the norm in other parts of the country, but I prefer to have a door on my bathroom!

[JTW2013]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Far out is relative. If you have moved here since the recession, in particular, you can have no concept of how fast this city developed from nothing. I have said on this forum several times that I lived in Ahwatukee in the early 1980s. When I moved there, all my co-workers were asking why I wanted to live so far out there. I lived in the very northern part near Elliot and 48th Street which is now somewhat crappy but considered convenient. So far out from what? Shopping? Don't worry, you will have to drive to that for a few years but eventually they will bring the mall to you. All of Chandler was nothing but cotton, resort, and some rundown houses when I came here. Gilbert was some trailers surrounded by orange groves and sugar beet fields. So when people move here, it is with the expectation that the area will grow around them and they get the bonus, to my thinking at least, of being away from the over-commercialized madness that is the Valley of the Sun. What once was too far out becomes close in and convenient.

All metros start out like that but eventually there comes a point where the value of the growth begins to decline. Take the Chicago boomburg of Naperville. It's about 60 miles west of the Loop and is a an employment center of its own. It's on the Metra line and I think you can get an express train to the Loop. It's right on a major freeway. It probably seemed like Iowa to people in 1980. I'd guess the average Napervillian lives about 30 to 45 miles from his/her work. Who is willing to move that up to an hour? There comes a point where people are not willing to drive any further. Obviously where people work keeps changing but most corporate style employers cluster in certain areas and they're not moving west of Naperville.

Naperville has held its value well. The far edges have been filled in the last few years and there isn't much land left. People who can't afford Naperville go further west or south but those areas aren't as premium and will never have the same amenities and schools because people who are willing to pay for the amenities aren't going past Naperville (speaking generally of course).

I did a 2 hour round trip commute for a few years and it was pretty awful. I didn't realize how bad it was until it stopped and I gained 5 extra hours a week.

There has to be a limit to how far people will commute to work.

[DetroitN8V]

Originally Posted by ajonesaz

YES! Another deal killer. Not sure if that is the norm in other parts of the country, but I prefer to have a door on my bathroom!

I've never seen an exposed toilet though. When there is no door on the master bath, I've always seen an enclosed water closet. Given that, I don't see it as a deal breaker at all.

[JTW2013]

Originally Posted by ajonesaz

YES! Another deal killer. Not sure if that is the norm in other parts of the country, but I prefer to have a door on my bathroom!

I've never seen that anywhere else. The 3 weird things I saw in every almost house in Phoenix: 1) no door to the master bathroom, 2) little wall niches that no one knows what to do with and 3) cabinets in the hallways.

ETA, the toilet is always behind a door but I'd still prefer a door. What if my DH wakes up earlier than me?