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You like Riverview so much, how about this, just build at the 101/McKellips which would still be on the Reservation and a stones throw from your Shangri-La of Riverview in Mesa and it can overlook the Salt River Materials Group and all of their sand and gravel!
Worked in Detroit.
One of the better views a few blocks north of Ford Field. Most of it looks more like Beirut.
I suggest you take another look at next year's NHL draft, the projected 1st overall pick is Austin Matthews from Scottsdale. You are discussing something here that you don't have knowledge of. The rink in Glendale is not full of just northerners and fans of other teams. There are quite a few local fans and the local hockey scene is growing quickly in terms of numbers and quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
We agree. It's just that the NHL is even father away from an "Arizona" team (foreign players, foreign owner and playing in a desert). As you might guess, I don't follow any professional teams (but I do watch the Olympics). So unless my son or daughter played for the team, you won't see me as a crazed fan. I have NO problem with big-time pro sports fans. I just don't appreciate subsidizing them.
To your initial point. Certainly northern transplants and snowbirds attend games and is the reason the franchise came to this fine state in the 1st place. I played hockey myself and I have watched my son play hockey several thousand hours. But like others, I just don't see the reason why cities and states need to build bigger and bigger stadium shrines for wealthy people (more-often-than-not they are losing propositions).
With that said, the "Yotes" won't have any local pro players anytime soon. They don't have the infrastructure (youth hockey is extremely weak as compared to powerhouse states like MN). Even in MN, only 31 players are from MN and play in the NHL today. Life-to-date, we have two from AZ. See NHL Players Born in Arizona, United States | Hockey-Reference.com . Couturier only was in AZ while his Dad was a local coach. Jim Brown was born in PHX but grew-up in NY. So really, zero NHL players ever. I don't see that changing.
Hmmm. That's too bad for me if the yotes move. I only attend 5 or 6 games a year but usually with company so generally four of us attending.
East valley fans won't drive thru rush hour to get to a game on the west side, I would seldom go east.
IMHO, it wouldl be a different fan base from the east. Many west fans have allegiances to other teams and we go to watch the "game". I tell people I'm not there to chat. I want to watch the game.
I think a lot of eastern fans would be more corporate and will go to games for the "event" That's happened in most nhl rinks. The West valley was different as it is mainly an older, northern climate crowd that immerses in the game. However I have noticed a lot more local fans at games lately.
Not saying it's better either way.
If they move, I vote for talking stick. I'd far prefer they stay at westgate.
PS, glad somone mentioned Austin Mathews. But I guess that indicates just how fringe hockey is when residents don't know they have a potential no1 pick.
Also, what professional sport team is comprised mainly of locals? Not many.
Hmmm. That's too bad for me if the yotes move. I only attend 5 or 6 games a year but usually with company so generally four of us attending.
East valley fans won't drive thru rush hour to get to a game on the west side, I would seldom go east.
IMHO, it wouldl be a different fan base from the east. Many west fans have allegiances to other teams and we go to watch the "game". I tell people I'm not there to chat. I want to watch the game.
I think a lot of eastern fans would be more corporate and will go to games for the "event" That's happened in most nhl rinks. The West valley was different as it is mainly an older, northern climate crowd that immerses in the game. However I have noticed a lot more local fans at games lately.
Not saying it's better either way.
If they move, I vote for talking stick. I'd far prefer they stay at westgate.
PS, glad somone mentioned Austin Mathews. But I guess that indicates just how fringe hockey is when residents don't know they have a potential no1 pick.
Also, what professional sport team is comprised mainly of locals? Not many.
While you may be right, only 700k of the metro lives in the west valley with 1.6 in Phoenix and the rest in the east valley attendance would certainly go up.
Also Phoenix had hockey success with the roadrunners without this apparent need for northern transplant (since they need to convince themselves as necessary but I digress)
I've gone to every home ASU game minus 1-2 in the past 20 years (larger crowds than the Cardinals ever had there) and I almost never have an issue with parking. One recent time that I did, it was because Kanye West had a concert at Tempe Beach Park and there was a show at Gammage, plus a sold out home game, but I still found a parking lot with spots after 20 minutes next to the Old Chili's at University/Mill. Sometimes I tailgate and park in the North lot, but usually I park off of Mill and pregame there (also be aware the ASU structures can be used for event parking - less than a mile walk to the stadium). I don't know why your experience on a Sunday was so much different than my past 200 or so experiences on busier college football Saturdays, but handling event parking for maybe 60-70% LESS people should not be an issue in the least. I'm usually looking for parking for less than 5 minutes on much busier event days. Phoenix is less convenient IMO, and also further from the freeway than DT Tempe.
Well maybe because you were attending a college football game where a large percentage of fans live near campus and walk to the games versus an NFL game in which people are coming from all over the city in cars. I attended popular games such as the Cowboys games which were arguably as busy as the Sundevils games. Parking near the stadium sold quickly and you were forced to parking in private lots off on west University street. And this was usually after waiting for 20 minutes in local traffic on University or Mill.
I was recently at Tempe Marketplace on a weekday. I took my youngest to Dave and Busters after school as a treat. It took me 30 minutes to drive home starting at 5:30 pm to North Chandler. Rio Salado/101 was blocked so I was forced to driving south to Apache. It was extremely congested.
What reasoning are you using to base that downtown Phoenix is less convenient than downtown Tempe for the majority of fans in the Valley? How does it have less access to the freeway? You can access downtown Phoenix through the I-10/I-17 stack, I-17, I-10 and the 51? Tempe is further away for fans living in Central Phoenix, the West Valley, North Phoenix and North Scottsdale so how is Tempe more convenient for those fans?
For the record, I love Tempe. This is not me putting down Tempe in any regard. I'm just a pragmatist and recognize the Coyotes could run into many of the same problems playing in Tempe. For those fans living in the aforementioned parts of the Valley, I don't see them fighting rush hour to drive to Tempe to watch a hockey game at 7:00 pm. Whereas the majority of the Valley live in Phoenix and it would be much easier to sell out games if the team played there.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 12-10-2015 at 12:36 AM..
Also remember, if it is in Tempe, it is right in the middle of many of the corporate headquarters in the valley - the center of the wheel if you will, or at least near the center. There are many regional or corporate headquarters located in Tempe, Scottsdale, Chandler and Phoenix, this is why I say being near the East 101 corridor is an idea to explore, because it is near the lions share of employers. You don't necessarily need someone driving from their homes in the West Valley on a Thursday night if their job is in the Price Corridor, for example. I still agree that Downtown Phoenix is the #1 choice, but I am fine with Downtown Tempe as well (1A?) due to the location near the major employment areas and population centers and along major freeways. I love those luxury boxes, been to the Suns suite many times and it is a great experience, got invited to one again for the Cactus Bowl. Crappy bowl but this will make it worth it.
It's not the same type of corporate presence that you find in Phoenix. It's primarily the financial and legal entities that purchase the majority of these suites and they are primarily found in Phoenix. They entertain clients and employees at these suites after work.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 12-10-2015 at 01:06 AM..
I suggest you take another look at next year's NHL draft, the projected 1st overall pick is Austin Matthews from Scottsdale. You are discussing something here that you don't have knowledge of. The rink in Glendale is not full of just northerners and fans of other teams. There are quite a few local fans and the local hockey scene is growing quickly in terms of numbers and quality.
I never said there isn't local support for the Coyotes. Of course there is. If their wasn't, the team never would have moved. I simply agreed with someone else saying that transplants and snowbirds are supporters of AZ professional hockey and they add up. To what level I don't know.
I think i have a pretty good handle on youth PHX hockey. It's pretty much non-existent. I know transplant who's kids play here. They dance around the competition and they were C caliber players in the north. In case you didn't know, being a 1st round pick in the NHL does NOT mean you are playing in the NHL. The great news is you have about a 50% chance of becoming a long term pro. I'm not taking anything away from the only native AZ player to get drafted (Auston Matthews). If he plays in the NHL (matures as expected and doesn't get hurt) he will be the one and only AZ native player to skate in an NHL game.
An interesting factoid. From The Worst First Overall Draft Picks in NHL History "There have been a total of 51 first overall draft picks in NHL history. 39 Canadians, only 6 Americans, 3 Russians, 2 Czechs and 1 Swede. 14 of those have gone on to capture the coveted Stanley Cup in their career. 7 of them are now members of the Hockey Hall of Fame. About 25 of them could now be considered among some of the all-time greats. Oh, wait. What’s that? Three first NHL draft overall picks went on to never even play an NHL game? " When he plays his 1st NHL game (and he has a better than 50-50 chance that will happen) then he will be the 1st and only true native player.
So how did this Scottsdale kid (who is obviously an incredibly athletic) do it? By paying $20K a year in hockey fees and constantly leaving the state. He didn't get his needed world class experience and competition in AZ. Impossible. In a state like MN, every single town in the metro area has a rink with a couple of sheets of ice. Some have even more ice arenas. In fact, the largest ice rink complex in the world was 20 minutes from one of our homes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwan_Super_Rink . Then, 10 minutes south on highway 65 is another 3 sheets of ice and 15 to the north is 2 more sheets. Welcome to a real hockey area. In some towns of MN, they have 250 squirts trying out. That isn't an area 300 square mile area, we are talking about a town of Plymouth (70,000 population). Their C teams could mop up several of the AZ traveling teams (the C team draws around the 60-75 best players out of 250). Most of these players go to some camps and play year round to have a fighting chance to make a team. In a state like MN, they have hockey clinics up the wazoo. Still, most of the NHL players come from out of this country. If it matters, I know several ex-NHL players. My son played against many draft picks including Nick Bjugstad who was men among boys. In fact, here is the list of 235 MN NHL players. NHL Players Born in Minnesota, United States | Hockey-Reference.com . Triple that list if you want to include NHL draft picks. Again, I am NOT taking away anything from your local world class hockey and baseball athlete, Austin Matthews. You should all be proud of his accomplishments!
Speaking of the NHL draft. Here is a fun picture of a single team of 8 year oldsAAA Teams . A total of 8 of those kids on that team were drafted in the NHL (which is NOT the same as playing in the NHL).
As you might guess, I am chuckling on how you actually might think AZ is on the hockey map. The AZ programs are a (hockey) joke. Now if you want intense, visit our neighbors to the north. Canada has many more hockey intense areas than MN. MN is a joke in comparison. Comparing AZ hockey to a northern state like MN in hockey is like comparing the USA to the Taiwanese in basketball. While we are at it, most northern states pale in comparison to TX or Alabama in Football.
Back to the topic. MN lost a pro team (North Stars) partially from the lack of support. The stands are empty for many of the Coyote games. Surprise! What's the excuse? They need to be on the East side. Huh! Long term, I won't be surprised if this experiment fails. Right now it works because the Canadian owners figured out a way of extracting money from locals who were pitched they have a fighting chance to stand on their own. They need another victim and it seems they got the ear of a couple different locations. Hats off to the rich sales guys that get suckers to subsidize their toys.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-10-2015 at 06:35 AM..
It's not the same type of corporate presence that you find in Phoenix. It's primarily the financial and legal entities that purchase the majority of these suites and they are primarily found in Phoenix. They entertain clients and employees at these suites after work.
I know exactly who owns these suites. As I said I have been to the suns suites a few times and passed the other suites, didn't see any law firms names posted, but did see companies which are located primarily either downtown phx, Scottsdale, Tempe abd Chandler. employees of these suites use them, its not just the CEO entertaining clients. They are a "perk" to the everyday employees.
To clarify your other post, I didn't mean Tempe is more convenient than Phoenix for most people, it was in response to his long it takes once you get off the freeway to get to the venue. Tempe has always been more convenient to me, probably because it has such easy freeway access located within a couple miles of either the 202, 101, 60 or 143. In Phoenix, I-10 is clearly the best option with the I 17 the only other option and it is not a good one. your experience downtown is with much smaller crowds than football games see, so its not an apples to apples comparison.
It's a little disingenuous to compare a program that is still in it's infancy like Phoenix youth hockey to those with a 100 year history like Minnie and Canada. A better comparison would be SoCal where the program has been going a little longer based on the NHL's earlier arrival than AZ. They have produced several NHL and minor league pros in the 20 years of serious youth hockey. Phoenix will probably never be able to compare prospects with colder northern climates as it's not the primary sport on southern US. And your silliness about 1st overall picks never playing in NHL??? The so called worst 1st overall pick in last 20 years played over 300 NHL games and retired due to injury, but I assume you already know that. Scouting is light years from where it was in the 60's when the 3 who never played a game were drafted, there in no chance that a 1st overall drafted player doesn't play in NHL except for injury or illness. Auston Matthews will be a star and he was developed right here in the valley. I don't have to check put up north as I'm from Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
I never said there isn't local support for the Coyotes. Of course there is. If their wasn't, the team never would have moved. I simply agreed with someone else saying that transplants and snowbirds are supporters of AZ professional hockey and they add up. To what level I don't know.
I think i have a pretty good handle on youth PHX hockey. It's pretty much non-existent. I know transplant who's kids play here. They dance around the competition and they were C caliber players in the north. In case you didn't know, being a 1st round pick in the NHL does NOT mean you are playing in the NHL. The great news is you have about a 50% chance of becoming a long term pro. I'm not taking anything away from the only native AZ player to get drafted (Auston Matthews). If he plays in the NHL (matures as expected and doesn't get hurt) he will be the one and only AZ native player to skate in an NHL game.
An interesting factoid. From The Worst First Overall Draft Picks in NHL History "There have been a total of 51 first overall draft picks in NHL history. 39 Canadians, only 6 Americans, 3 Russians, 2 Czechs and 1 Swede. 14 of those have gone on to capture the coveted Stanley Cup in their career. 7 of them are now members of the Hockey Hall of Fame. About 25 of them could now be considered among some of the all-time greats. Oh, wait. What’s that? Three first NHL draft overall picks went on to never even play an NHL game? " When he plays his 1st NHL game (and he has a better than 50-50 chance that will happen) then he will be the 1st and only true native player.
So how did this Scottsdale kid (who is obviously an incredibly athletic) do it? By paying $20K a year in hockey fees and constantly leaving the state. He didn't get his needed world class experience and competition in AZ. Impossible. In a state like MN, every single town in the metro area has a rink with a couple of sheets of ice. Some have even more ice arenas. In fact, the largest ice rink complex in the world was 20 minutes from one of our homes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwan_Super_Rink . Then, 10 minutes south on highway 65 is another 3 sheets of ice and 15 to the north is 2 more sheets. Welcome to a real hockey area. In some towns of MN, they have 250 squirts trying out. That isn't an area 300 square mile area, we are talking about a town of Plymouth (70,000 population). Their C teams could mop up several of the AZ traveling teams (the C team draws around the 60-75 best players out of 250). Most of these players go to some camps and play year round to have a fighting chance to make a team. In a state like MN, they have hockey clinics up the wazoo. Still, most of the NHL players come from out of this country. If it matters, I know several ex-NHL players. My son played against many draft picks including Nick Bjugstad who was men among boys. In fact, here is the list of 235 MN NHL players. NHL Players Born in Minnesota, United States | Hockey-Reference.com . Triple that list if you want to include NHL draft picks. Again, I am NOT taking away anything from your local world class hockey and baseball athlete, Austin Matthews. You should all be proud of his accomplishments!
Speaking of the NHL draft. Here is a fun picture of a single team of 8 year oldsAAA Teams . A total of 8 of those kids on that team were drafted in the NHL (which is NOT the same as playing in the NHL).
As you might guess, I am chuckling on how you actually might think AZ is on the hockey map. The AZ programs are a (hockey) joke. Now if you want intense, visit our neighbors to the north. Canada has many more hockey intense areas than MN. MN is a joke in comparison. Comparing AZ hockey to a northern state like MN in hockey is like comparing the USA to the Taiwanese in basketball. While we are at it, most northern states pale in comparison to TX or Alabama in Football.
Back to the topic. MN lost a pro team (North Stars) partially from the lack of support. The stands are empty for many of the Coyote games. Surprise! What's the excuse? They need to be on the East side. Huh! Long term, I won't be surprised if this experiment fails. Right now it works because the Canadian owners figured out a way of extracting money from locals who were pitched they have a fighting chance to stand on their own. They need another victim and it seems they got the ear of a couple different locations. Hats off to the rich sales guys that get suckers to subsidize their toys.
It's a little disingenuous to compare a program that is still in it's infancy like Phoenix youth hockey to those with a 100 year history like Minnie and Canada. A better comparison would be SoCal where the program has been going a little longer based on the NHL's earlier arrival than AZ. They have produced several NHL and minor league pros in the 20 years of serious youth hockey. Phoenix will probably never be able to compare prospects with colder northern climates as it's not the primary sport on southern US. And your silliness about 1st overall picks never playing in NHL??? The so called worst 1st overall pick in last 20 years played over 300 NHL games and retired due to injury, but I assume you already know that. Scouting is light years from where it was in the 60's when the 3 who never played a game were drafted, there in no chance that a 1st overall drafted player doesn't play in NHL except for injury or illness. Auston Matthews will be a star and he was developed right here in the valley. I don't have to check put up north as I'm from Canada.
Since you are from Canada, you know that AZ youth hockey isn't anything close to what it is up north. You were the one saying to watchout for a lone AZ player. Just because I point to a link doesn't mean I agree with every word. I linked my source that showed that being DRAFTED isn't playing in the NHL. It is a FACT that 6% of the #1 draft picks never played an NHL game in their life; I didn't make it up. If you want to call that disingenuous, fine. If you read what I said, I called him World Class and said it is highly probable he will play in the NHL (94% 1st rounders will play in the NHL). But you have absolutely no idea what he will become; the jury is out.
Still, he did NOT gain his expertise locally as you claim. He spent $20K a year traveling to more competitive areas (I gave you the link). AZ is a loooooooooong way from CA in their hockey program. Simply count the rinks and follow the money. More often than not, the good players in hockey have parents with a buck in their pocket. It takes travel, camps, and a lot of development that costs $$'s. The price of entry costs $5K a year in MN and $20K in AZ because they lack talent (talent breads talent). In MN, there are subsidies (charitable gambling) that cut out $2K a year for youth. Heck, it costs a mere $200/year for high school students. They are on the ice every day and nearly every high school in MN has a program. If I heard my AZ transplant friend correctly (our kids played together a decade ago), there are zero high school hockey teams in AZ; only spread out club teams with luke warm players (but the parents are convinced they are all that). It's why you won't find intercity hockey players because it is a rich mans sport (but a lot of poor basketball players). California has more money, more people, and therefore a more successful program. Let me be blunt. AZ will never produce the same amount of players as in California . For that matter, in California they will never produce 8 kids on a single youth team drafted to the NHL. While we are at it, MN will never produce players such as Sherbrooke Canada (a massive Canadian hot bed of players).
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 12-10-2015 at 08:41 AM..
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I still agree that Downtown Phoenix is the #1 choice, but I am fine with Downtown Tempe as well (1A?) due to the location near the major employment areas and population centers and along major freeways. I love those luxury boxes, been to the Suns suite many times and it is a great experience, got invited to one again for the Cactus Bowl. Crappy bowl but this will make it worth it. 
The great news is you have about a 50% chance of becoming a long term pro. I'm not taking anything away from the only native AZ player to get drafted (Auston Matthews). If he plays in the NHL (matures as expected and doesn't get hurt) he will be the one and only AZ native player to skate in an NHL game. 
