downtown phoenix has been invaded (Tucson, Scottsdale: condominium, hotels, buying)

[Mister-A]

Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220

About the only way to create that demand in a non-geograpgically constrained area like this is to tear up all the freeways and make commuting such a PITA that people will all move back in again

There's a good point here. Fuel prices were driving a trend toward shorter commutes for a while. The balance has tipped back the other way for now, but another major move toward higher commuting costs will probably drive mainstream interest in living closer to city centers even in cities that don't have a strong tradition of mixed-use development.

By the same token, parking, especially cheap or free parking, in a downtown is often a massive subsidy to suburbs. Cities allocate resources to parking spaces don't get property taxes out of them, regulations that allocate a private developer's space to parking prevent that space from being used for other revenue-generating purposes like tables in a restaurant or shelves in a store. It's frequently the case that there's a significant transfer of wealth going on to keep suburban sprawl from caving in under its own weight. If all parking and freeway were operated at market prices and commuters saw those costs firsthand, you'd probably see a lot of people urgently trying to adopt a different strategy just to stay afloat.

I was a little surprised that a poster claimed Vancouver and the cities of Europe don't have tall buildings. Vancouver actually has one of the highest concentrations of tall buildings in any city. London, Paris, and Frankfurt all built major high-rise business districts as a concession to economic reality over aesthetics - though largely without bulldozing the old central cities. La Defense is a predominant view from the Arc de Triomph and the Eiffel Tower:



Cash costs aside, if you spend ten minutes on something every workday, you've spent a workweek on it at the end of the year. Those commutes add up and sprawl gets "paid for" one way or another.

[_Charles_]

ASU has created a quasi-campus downtown, UofA med school and and ASU are cooperating with teaching hospital facility and the ASU law school is also relocating downtown. It is a change for the better. Phoenix and central AZ is a great place.
I have been all around he country and have lived here by choice since 1986. LOL Jack Swilling knew what he was doing back in 1869.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by locolife

Agreed

You mean like live music venues like Crescent, Valley Bar, the Lost Leaf and Nash? Or one of the best monthly art walks in the country? A thriving indie restaurant scene that includes Matt's Big Breakfast, Angels Trumpet House, Short Leash, Pomo, Bianco, Fez, etc... or maybe a local art scene with Monorchid, Modified Arts, Made or the dozens of other galleries, boutiques and live music around Roosevelt Row.

Downtown Phoenix has a lot going on already and it only seems to be getting better.

Many valley downtowns, even in the suburbs like Scottsdale, Chandler or Gilbert have the same or similar restaurants. They may not have the art walk, but they have other things such as beer fest, salsa fest, farmers markets, etc. The urban core just needs much "more" IMO, and it does not.

[take57]

Originally Posted by BIG CATS

Bro's n ho's moving into a trendy district makes PHX a "real city"? If thats the case, Scottsdale was a "real city" long before Phoenix.

Seriously, though, until Phoenix starts building up (not out) and has light rail and express trains that run out in every direction, coupled with a CBD that attracts lots of Fortune 500 companies, Ill always consider us a "runner up" at best.

I don't always agree with you CATS, but in this case you're spot on.

[_Charles_]

The neighborhoods in the central corridor - north of downtown, between 7th Street and 7th Avenue are very livable. Real estate in that area has become pricey but if you can afford it - it is worth it.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by nala1908

Valley native,

Tall buildings are cool. But you need to have the demand for it before you build one.

There has been demand for them all along. How do you think the Valley Bank Tower (now the Chase Tower) ever got built way back in the early 1970s when Phoenix was a mid sized city at best? How did the Central Corridor ever become a highrise district way back in the 1960s? Look around: Phoenix already has tall buildings, and many of them were built during a time when Phoenix was a much smaller city & suburban sprawl was the way to go. Don't make lame excuses about the lack of demand because there is a greater demand for more centralized locations and upward development now than there was in the past. As large as Phoenix is, we should have many more highrises as tall as (or taller than) the Chase Tower by now. Why don't you just admit that you're another NIMBY who is simply opposed to tall buildings?

[locolife]

Originally Posted by asufan

Many valley downtowns, even in the suburbs like Scottsdale, Chandler or Gilbert have the same or similar restaurants. They may not have the art walk, but they have other things such as beer fest, salsa fest, farmers markets, etc. The urban core just needs much "more" IMO, and it does not.

I agree that the core needs more but it's going to take time since nobody cared for decades and decades. The pieces are coming together now. All of the cities you mentioned are missing a lot of aspects that downtown Phoenix offers. The only place that comes close is downtown Scottsdale. The highest walk-ability score you'll find in the valley is downtown Phoenix, where it is as high as 96, you won't find that anywhere else in the valley. And it will only get higher when Fry's opens and everything else in the hopper gets completed.

You won't find Bianco restaurants in any of the cities you mentioned, you won't find pro sports, big arts like the symphony and ballet, you're going to be missing museums, concentration of theaters, live performing venues and so on...

https://www.walkscore.com/apartments/search/AZ/Phoenix

[nala1908]

Yeah downtown Phoenix is far beyond any of those exurbs. The closest being Scottsdale as you said. And valley native, the chase bank building isn't even tall. 38 stories is baby **** in Chicago

[asufan]

Originally Posted by locolife

You won't find Bianco restaurants in any of the cities you mentioned, you won't find pro sports, big arts like the symphony and ballet, you're going to be missing museums, concentration of theaters, live performing venues and so on...

https://www.walkscore.com/apartments/search/AZ/Phoenix

Yeah I'm not sold on "Bianco" being such a huge draw, especially with the explosion of pizza restaurants all over. I went for the first time in the mid 90's on a date when I first moved here and they were getting all the press. I was not that impressed. I went again within the past 5 years and also was not impressed. I really prefer Toscany's, Stone & Vine and Grimaldi's for coal brick oven pizza. All have locations in Chandler and they offer better flavor IMO and also feature fresh ingredients. Downtown Chandler also has La Bocca and Gilbert has a Pomo. Of course, Downtown Phoenix has more choices, but my point is, you will have essentially the same experience in all of these areas, there's nothing really to set Phoenix apart (yet). Especially versus Scottsdale and Tempe, which I feel still have more to offer downtown than Phoenix.

Now as far as shows, I can only speak to where I live in Chandler, the Chandler Center for the Arts is located downtown adjacent to the High School, and has symphonies, musicals, magic shows, ballet etc, all of which I would never attend ,much like I wouldn't attend a similar downtown show. Downtown PHX certainly has more concerts, but it really wasn't a huge selling point when those same concerts were at Compton Terrace in Chandler either. I'm not one for any of the local museums, I have been to some of the local museums including the Railroad museum in Chandler, Heard Museum in Phoenix, but those are once in a lifetime things for me, not something I would do on a weekly basis. The museums in NYC and DC would be more of a draw for me.

All I'm trying to say is that Phoenix is still far from being unique and really doesn't offer anything yet that is a major draw, and nothing much that would draw someone like me from the suburbs (and I think a majority of suburban residents would think like me). I think jobs are the first thing it needs and it has started to finally move the needle in the right direction, not playing second fiddle to some of the East Valley suburbs like in the past.

[gearedtowardssalad]

Originally Posted by goolsbyjazz

I spoke with a local artist who knew all of this was going to happen. There is a certain developer who owns most, if not all, of the land in the Roosevelt Row area and he (the artist) told me years ago about butting heads with the person who owned the properties about their plan. That plan was to allow the local artist to build up interest, noteriety and culture in the area before going in and changing it to what it's becoming. This is no accident, it was by design unfortunately.

Always seemed strange to me how fast the area gentrified and this totally explains it and resolves some of my confusion surrounding Phoenix. I always have wondered why people in Roosevelt Row don't just move to Tucson considering Tucson has always been more alternative than anywhere in the valley.