How much for new a/c (Phoenix: credit, water heater, to buy)

[wase4711]

nice article!
I bought a Trane XL as well, after doing tons of research..It is silent, thats for sure

[kell490]

Originally Posted by wit-nit

An excellent article on various brand of AC units sold by an AZ dealer/contractor.

Is Trane Better Than Carrier, Goodman(now Daiken of Japan), and Lennox? An Unbiased Review from a Contractor Who Sells Many Air Conditioner Brands, Not Just Trane.

Is Trane AC Worth the Extra Money | Magic Touch Mechanical

Nothing more then an advertisement for an AC contractor this is how he sees it

Good level 20% profit

better level 40% profit

Best level 60% profit


My Goodman has lasted 10 years which I bought in 2007 for $3000 installed, and today the condenser fan went out cost me $150 for a new fan motor and an hour of my time to install it. Other then that one repair I have had no issues with it. My neighbor has bought Trane for $12000 in 2007 and this week he spent $18000 on a new Trane because Goettl told him a part went bad and cost him $2500 to replace. He had a service contract with Goettl I guess all that service and spending $30000 in 10 years on AC units didn't work out for him.

The ROI on a high seer unit against the electric bill doesn't work out for at least 15 years 5 years past he warranty period.

Next time you are told to buy a high seer unit ask them to show you how it works out how many years of savings will it be?

Once that Trane XL is out of warranty the cost of the parts will be so high you need a new unit like my neighbor.

[wase4711]

your logic is flawed because of two major factors; NO ONE can forecast out what the will be price for electricity, or what the weather will be like in the the future in 1,5 or 10 years, so, that kills the ROI discussion right out of the box..

[kell490]

Originally Posted by wase4711

your logic is flawed because of two major factors; NO ONE can forecast out what the will be price for electricity, or what the weather will be like in the the future in 1,5 or 10 years, so, that kills the ROI discussion right out of the box..

It's not going to get cooler or less expensive so yes your right but that makes it even worse for the ROI maybe 20 years. No AC contractor has ever been able to dispute the ROI of a high seer unit. When we get past that I bring up the cost of variable speed fans, variable, or 2 speed compressors, and electronic control boards to run all that once the warranty runs out. Now we have the problem with refrigerant every time we get a new one it has to be replaced because R-410 is a green house gas all these new high end units have R-410 which will be phased out eventually and force replacement of the AC unit.

[wase4711]

actually, its just the opposite from what you are portraying; if energy costs double, and the average temps skyrocket, then, a HIGH SEER unit, that runs super efficiently will SAVE you money, by using less of the higher priced electricity, than a low SEER unit would use..not sure how your example actually extends the ROI; it actually SHORTENS how long it takes to get your investment back through savings on your Electric bill you would realize with a high SEER unit versus a lower one..

[Pink Jazz]

In fact, the DOE Southwest Region (Arizona, California, Nevada, and New Mexico) has the highest minimum efficiency standards for air conditioners - 14 SEER and 12.2 EER. Other warmer climate states (simply known as the DOE South region) also have a 14 SEER minimum requirement but a lower EER requirement. The DOE North Region remains 13 SEER.

[Potential_Landlord]

Btw Goodman offers higher SEER units too. Not only Trane. But in our climate the higher SEERs are not as valuable. We use most of the AC power in July - August. The difference from SEER 10 to 15 may be around 35% more efficient at 90F, but only 10% at 110F. (Not an expert, rules of thumb). The lows in July - August are around 90 and the highs are towards 110, plus you need way more power at the higher temperatures, when higher SEERs are not that much more efficient. So I doubt it will pencil out. If you're really into savings then use a swamp cooler outside the monsoon season (if your house allows it), that will save more than new AC with higher SEER.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Btw Goodman offers higher SEER units too. Not only Trane. But in our climate the higher SEERs are not as valuable. We use most of the AC power in July - August. The difference from SEER 10 to 15 may be around 35% more efficient at 90F, but only 10% at 110F. (Not an expert, rules of thumb). The lows in July - August are around 90 and the highs are towards 110, plus you need way more power at the higher temperatures, when higher SEERs are not that much more efficient. So I doubt it will pencil out. If you're really into savings then use a swamp cooler outside the monsoon season (if your house allows it), that will save more than new AC with higher SEER.

So if in our climate the higher SEER units aren't as valuable, why does the DOE set their highest minimum standards for the Southwest Region? The DOE is not stupid.

[kell490]

Originally Posted by wase4711

actually, its just the opposite from what you are portraying; if energy costs double, and the average temps skyrocket, then, a HIGH SEER unit, that runs super efficiently will SAVE you money, by using less of the higher priced electricity, than a low SEER unit would use..not sure how your example actually extends the ROI; it actually SHORTENS how long it takes to get your investment back through savings on your Electric bill you would realize with a high SEER unit versus a lower one..

How SEER Ratings Are Determined
All air conditioners are rated according to efficiency tests stipulated by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). Tests assume an outdoor temperature of 82˚F, an indoor temperature of 80˚F and an indoor relative humidity of 50%.

https://www.thecoolingco.com/blog/ai...ings-explained

This is why high seer ratings don't work in AZ when it's 110F during the day will be the same as a $3000 goodman at that point the higher seer unit only works when it's 82F outside I don't even run my AC unit when it's 82F outside just open the windows and run a fan. As I stated earlier higher temps and high cost electricity means longer ROI's not shorter because there will be less of a savings it only saves when it's cooler not hotter.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by kell490

How SEER Ratings Are Determined
All air conditioners are rated according to efficiency tests stipulated by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE). Tests assume an outdoor temperature of 82˚F, an indoor temperature of 80˚F and an indoor relative humidity of 50%.

https://www.thecoolingco.com/blog/ai...ings-explained

This is why high seer ratings don't work in AZ when it's 110F during the day will be the same as a $3000 goodman at that point the higher seer unit only works when it's 82F outside I don't even run my AC unit when it's 82F outside just open the windows and run a fan. As I stated earlier higher temps and high cost electricity means longer ROI's not shorter because there will be less of a savings it only saves when it's cooler not hotter.

Well, you may not be able to achieve the SEER rating, but it is indisputable that a unit with a higher SEER uses less electricity to cool or heat than one with a lower SEER. So buying a higher SEER unit means a lower electric bill. On the other hand, the law of diminishing returns applies here as well. Paying a premium price for a very high SEER will probably never pencil out. That is the case with just about all energy efficiency improvements. They cost more than they save over the years. The one exception I know of is solar screening which has a reasonably short payback time.

Anyway, EER (energy efficiency ratio) is a better metric for us. It is simply the output in BTU of cooling divided by the input in watts - bang for the buck, sort of. It is calculated at 95 degrees F with output air temp of 80 and 50% humidity.