How much for new a/c (calculated, price, law)

[jimj]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Btw Goodman offers higher SEER units too. Not only Trane. But in our climate the higher SEERs are not as valuable. We use most of the AC power in July - August. The difference from SEER 10 to 15 may be around 35% more efficient at 90F, but only 10% at 110F. (Not an expert, rules of thumb). The lows in July - August are around 90 and the highs are towards 110, plus you need way more power at the higher temperatures, when higher SEERs are not that much more efficient. So I doubt it will pencil out. If you're really into savings then use a swamp cooler outside the monsoon season (if your house allows it), that will save more than new AC with higher SEER.

So, we have a Swamp Cooler and the A/C guy said "if you have any allergies and don't want to dust more then don't use your Swamp Cooler as it has no air filtering, just water running across mats".

[jimj]

I found this site actually has quite a bit of information on all units including whole house filtering.
Pickvac Cooling and Heating Guide
https://www.pickhvac.com/heat-pump/#Quality

[Potential_Landlord]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

So if in our climate the higher SEER units aren't as valuable, why does the DOE set their highest minimum standards for the Southwest Region? The DOE is not stupid.

Within the Southwest region, Phoenix is an extreme outlier. Most population centers do not get as hot. Also, bureaucracies have to demonstrate "progress" whether they make sense or not. They have to boast about something at the annual Global Warming conference to their foreign counterparts. Don't underestimate that factor.

[lewdog_5]

Most say the ROI for SEER ratings here is pretty useless above a 16 SEER rating. Those ratings mean much less here as our heat is an extreme outlier for how the ratings are determined.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Within the Southwest region, Phoenix is an extreme outlier. Most population centers do not get as hot. Also, bureaucracies have to demonstrate "progress" whether they make sense or not. They have to boast about something at the annual Global Warming conference to their foreign counterparts. Don't underestimate that factor.

If that was the case they could just go for one national standard. The DOE chose instead to regionalize the standards into North, South, and Southwest. While both South and Southwest have a 14 SEER minimum requirement, Southwest also has a 12.2 minimum EER requirement.

[Potential_Landlord]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

If that was the case they could just go for one national standard. The DOE chose instead to regionalize the standards into North, South, and Southwest. While both South and Southwest have a 14 SEER minimum requirement, Southwest also has a 12.2 minimum EER requirement.

Don't try to make sense of bureaucratic decisions. More often than not they are arbitrary or from whatever lobby group exerts the most pressure. Maybe the Sierra Club put most pressure on the Southwest region, who knows?

[wit-nit]

The minimum SEER for Southwestern states is 14 SEER for all air conditioners with a minimum EER of 12.2 for split system air conditioners with capacity less than 45,000 BTU/hr, a minimum EER of 11.7 for split system air conditioners with capacity greater than or equal to 45,000 Btu/hr, or a minimum EER of 11.0 for single package air conditioners. Southwestern states are AZ, CA, NM and NV.

Heat pumps are a national standard, with a minimum 14 SEER and 8.2 HSPF for split system heat pumps and 14 SEER and 8.0 HSPF for single package heat pumps. Full information on Regional Standards can be found here. Definitions of SEER and EER can be found here
https://www.amana-hac.com/resources/...rs-in-my-state

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by wit-nit

The minimum SEER for Southwestern states is 14 SEER for all air conditioners with a minimum EER of 12.2 for split system air conditioners with capacity less than 45,000 BTU/hr, a minimum EER of 11.7 for split system air conditioners with capacity greater than or equal to 45,000 Btu/hr, or a minimum EER of 11.0 for single package air conditioners. Southwestern states are AZ, CA, NM and NV.

Heat pumps are a national standard, with a minimum 14 SEER and 8.2 HSPF for split system heat pumps and 14 SEER and 8.0 HSPF for single package heat pumps. Full information on Regional Standards can be found here. Definitions of SEER and EER can be found here
https://www.amana-hac.com/resources/...rs-in-my-state

My guess for a national standard on heat pumps is due to their limited use in cold climates, since cold climate heat pumps are a fairly new concept that is still in its early stages that probably requires more real world testing for energy efficiency.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by Pink Jazz

So if in our climate the higher SEER units aren't as valuable, why does the DOE set their highest minimum standards for the Southwest Region? The DOE is not stupid.

Short answer?

Yes they are!

90% of the seer rating is based on temps below 90 degrees.

80% of the seer rating is weighted at temps below eighty degrees.

Think about that. Let it sink in. Many people in Phoenix don’t even turn on their a/c until the temps hit eighty degrees.

To use an analogy- it’s like a car manufacturer optimizing fuel economy at 15 mph, advertising the “great” fuel economy at 15 mph, and the government requiring excellent fuel economy at a speed you never drive at. No one knows or cares how much energy you use at actual highway speed, salesmen touting the efficiency at school-zone speeds only. Many salesmen quote savings numbers that aren’t possible & there’s no way to bust them, because we’re using a unit of measurement that does not even apply to the desert.

So long story short, the DOE *is* either stupid or corrupted. Full stop.

This isn’t news.

There was a “energy efficiency” tax credit a few years ago that handed out huge tax credits for solar water heaters, often in the multi-thousand dollar range & lots of people had solar water heaters installed in Phoenix. The thing is, heat-pump water heaters were available at the time for under a grand & actually use less energy than any solar setup. Solar had better lobbyists than the heat-pump manufacturers, even though heat pump water heaters are way less expensive to buy & use less energy to run.

There was no scientific or energy basis whatsoever to encourage the use of solar water heaters. But lots of people wasted lots of money on them, with encouragement and funds from the government.

[Pink Jazz]

Originally Posted by Zippyman

Short answer?

Yes they are!

90% of the seer rating is based on temps below 90 degrees.

80% of the seer rating is weighted at temps below eighty degrees.

Think about that. Let it sink in. Many people in Phoenix don’t even turn on their a/c until the temps hit eighty degrees.

To use an analogy- it’s like a car manufacturer optimizing fuel economy at 15 mph, advertising the “great” fuel economy at 15 mph, and the government requiring excellent fuel economy at a speed you never drive at. No one knows or cares how much energy you use at actual highway speed, salesmen touting the efficiency at school-zone speeds only. Many salesmen quote savings numbers that aren’t possible & there’s no way to bust them, because we’re using a unit of measurement that does not even apply to the desert.

So long story short, the DOE *is* either stupid or corrupted. Full stop.

This isn’t news.

There was a “energy efficiency” tax credit a few years ago that handed out huge tax credits for solar water heaters, often in the multi-thousand dollar range & lots of people had solar water heaters installed in Phoenix. The thing is, heat-pump water heaters were available at the time for under a grand & actually use less energy than any solar setup. Solar had better lobbyists than the heat-pump manufacturers, even though heat pump water heaters are way less expensive to buy & use less energy to run.

There was no scientific or energy basis whatsoever to encourage the use of solar water heaters. But lots of people wasted lots of money on them, with encouragement and funds from the government.

In that case they could just go for one national standard. Considering that they even separated South and Southwest with a higher EER rating for Southwest seems to be implying something. Are they really optimizing to the cooling demands of Los Angeles or San Diego, rather than Phoenix? Arguably you don't even need air conditioning in those cities.