'Supercooling' method is not economical (Scottsdale, Wickenburg: buyers, maintenance, live)

[wase4711]

well, its true, that once it cools down, and the snowbirds invade, it takes longer for anything and everything, from getting a seat at a good restaurant, a doctors appointment, and quality work done on your house; when it comes to HVAC work, this time of year is the busiest with breakdowns and emergency repairs, so that could extend to scheduling out even further..
I had mine replaced in Sept, just to make sure in case of a nightmare, it wouldn't be THAT terribly hot, and the install company was a little less busy..

[hikernut]

Originally Posted by veritased

Let me get your advice on this, is it better to do some major work like this in the summer or winter months?
Theory being that there is less of a demand premium in the winter months?

We did ours in November. The installers are a lot less busy than in the summer, and if there is some delay your house stays comfortable. Could do it in the spring of course, but I'd guess fall is less busy (because snowbirds are not here yet, plus people tend to procrastinate the work until summer is looming).

[hikernut]

Originally Posted by DougStark

If you want super efficient, look into geothermal heat pump systems. But I suspect most suburban lots are too small for the underground loops required, so never mind

One can always do vertical loops, so little area is required.

I've read that it takes 600-800 feet of underground piping per ton of equipment. That sure is a lot. Like most things, few people are willing to pay more up front for savings that will only be realized over 10-20 years.

My sister's family in the Midwest put in a geothermal system for a large work shed. AFAIK they are happy with it, and they've had it in service for probably ten years.

[veritased]

So fall timeframe it is, then. Makes sense.

Might look into solar too... I think the math just does not work out yet, even before govt incentives fade out.

[DougStark]

hikernut, thanks for the info on putting in vertical loops for geothermal heat pump.

If somehow the AC manufacturers could develop and market a water-cooled condenser for the residential market, we'd see AC efficiencies in our area go WAY up. Problem is, when the tap water is full of salts (like ours is in metro Phx), water-cooled condensers need maintenance (homeowners are notoriously bad at maintenance.) But, If homeowners had a source of salt-free water to automatically, periodically wet-down their condenser coils when it's over 100 degrees, they'd see their power bills drop considerably.

[hikernut]

Hi Doug,

The house we bought in Gilbert had such a system. A pump pushed water through some nozzles onto the coils to cool them. I believe the manufacturer was Freus. They are no longer a going concern, and a web search today shows no evidence of their existence.

Of course as you describe, the hard water we have here is a real problem for something like this. It was a real maintenance headache. When it died we replaced it with a conventional air-source heat pump.

[fluffythewondercat]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

Just need to reset the timers on the pool/spa pump. If it has the older mechanical dial, you need to reset the thumbscrew "triggers". If it is a newer pump with the digital controls, it is in the menu settings for the timers.

Yep, it was easy to do once we looked at the Jandy Aqualink. Thanks!

[DougStark]

Originally Posted by hikernut

Hi Doug,

The house we bought in Gilbert had such a system. A pump pushed water through some nozzles onto the coils to cool them. I believe the manufacturer was Freus. They are no longer a going concern, and a web search today shows no evidence of their existence.

Of course as you describe, the hard water we have here is a real problem for something like this. It was a real maintenance headache. When it died we replaced it with a conventional air-source heat pump.

Hikernut, yes I'm familiar with Freus. They seem to have foreseen all of the "bugs" in their water cooled condenser, yet the company folded. I don't know if it was technical problems with their product or lack of marketing to the public.

Furthermore, Most of the public wouldn't understand the technology of cooling the condenser with water vs. air, so I think it's a David vs. Goliath situation where the big manufacturers (Trane, Goodman, etc) mow down a small competitor. Most homeowners understand SEER--which is fine, but high SEER units aren't as efficient as you think when it's 105 degrees outside.

BTW, for any novice reading this, DO NOT install one of those cheap gadgets they sell that automatically sprays your outdoor AC unit with tap water each time it turns on. You'll end up with condenser fins caked with mineral deposits. Very bad.

[Hal Roach]

I have been using ductless, 1.5 ton, 17.6 seer Carrier inverter in my West facing, high floor Bangkok condo. My June electric was 39 usd, been running it 24/7. It also uses R32 refrigerant, which is a step ahead of 410 and just as cheap. Been reading up on the foam cleaners.. Now that is something to be extremely careful with, if at all, and if some felon shows up with a pressure washer.. look out. But the key to the inverter is that even though it is a 17000 BTU system, it runs between 3000 and 20000 BTU, and once you have the place dehumidifier and sealed properly, 3000 BTU can maintain it plenty cool. I take the non ac bus to not only save 20 cents, but also to warm up a little.

[hikernut]

Originally Posted by DougStark

Furthermore, Most of the public wouldn't understand the technology of cooling the condenser with water vs. air, so I think it's a David vs. Goliath situation where the big manufacturers (Trane, Goodman, etc) mow down a small competitor. Most homeowners understand SEER--which is fine, but high SEER units aren't as efficient as you think when it's 105 degrees outside.

Yes, it's certainly an uphill battle for any unconventional system. People may be willing to take a gamble on something unusual that costs $100 or even $1000. But most will (understandably) be cautious when shopping for a critical home system that costs several thousand dollars or more.

With all that said, I'm a little surprised/disappointed that geothermal systems are not more common here.