non-permitted addition? (Phoenix: HOA, insurance, house)

[ajonesaz]

Looking for a little feedback. I have a small remodeling job. I called 8 contractors, only one bothered to return my call. The problem is he is pushing to do this without a permit. What is the benefit of a licensed contractor doing work without a city permit? It would be in writing that it is up to code.

It would only add 96 sq ft of living space. We basically have a small patio off the size of the house we want to go straight across with a large sliding glass door. So the door would go in and the small patio would be living space. The area is already under the roof and no load bearing walls are going to be removed.

I know it might cause a lot of issues if I try to sell, but we don't plan on going anywhere and of we do the 96 sq ft isn't going to make or break the home price if we leave it off.

Anyone have any experience with this? Should I continue my contractor search or pull the trigger?

[AZ Manager]

It is hard to tell exactly but based on the description your patio is surrounded on 3 sides by the home? Is this the only patio or would you need to add another backyard space?

It needs electric and HVAC work done to be considered up to code living space. If it were me I'd want the existing stucco walls and cieling all removed, remove the insulation and redo the insulation.

The patio slab is sloped away from the house and lower than the rest of the house to drain rain water out or incase of a flood so it should at least be leveled but I'd want it brought up to the rest of the home. If you don't bring it up you need to also look at landscaping and drainage. You never want your structure to be near the ground so at the very least a stem wall should go in to lift the exterior walls, like what exterior garage walls sit on. If the existing landscaping is quite a bit lower and sloped away enough then you are probably fine but I don't really see that happen here in the valley.

That's a lot of faith you have in a complete stranger to not get permits.

[maverick974]

First of all, I'd make absolutely sure he is a licensed contractor. There shouldn't be any reason other than cost and time as to why he would have an issue with pulling a permit. Have him give you a copy of his license, his current bond and his insurance and I'd call each of those entities to make sure he is current. If he is not a licensed contractor, then all liabilities lie with you, the homeowner including liability if he gets hurt on your property.
I get so tired of contractors wanting full price for a job but not providing all that is required. Roofers are horrible about that. You hire a roofer for full price, he is licensed and bonded but the people actually doing the work are guys he grabbed off the street that aren't employees so they are NOT covered and again, the liability lies on the homeowner. These guys sit in the truck and watch the other guys work for peanuts.

[gemstone1]

So, why don't you expend the time and energy to pull the permit ? Not pulling the permit will result in a fine (if you are caught) that is double the amount of the original permit (if it had been pulled). Why does he want to do it without a permit....to save his time (making the drawings required for pulling the permit, waiting for inspections)....time is money.

Regards
Gemstone1

[ajonesaz]

Originally Posted by gemstone1

So, why don't you expend the time and energy to pull the permit ? Not pulling the permit will result in a fine (if you are caught) that is double the amount of the original permit (if it had been pulled). Why does he want to do it without a permit....to save his time (making the drawings required for pulling the permit, waiting for inspections)....time is money.

Regards
Gemstone1

Hence my concern, he is either lazy or doesn't plan on doing it to code. I can't tell which one.

[ajonesaz]

Originally Posted by AZ Manager

It is hard to tell exactly but based on the description your patio is surrounded on 3 sides by the home? Is this the only patio or would you need to add another backyard space?

It needs electric and HVAC work done to be considered up to code living space. If it were me I'd want the existing stucco walls and cieling all removed, remove the insulation and redo the insulation.

The patio slab is sloped away from the house and lower than the rest of the house to drain rain water out or incase of a flood so it should at least be leveled but I'd want it brought up to the rest of the home. If you don't bring it up you need to also look at landscaping and drainage. You never want your structure to be near the ground so at the very least a stem wall should go in to lift the exterior walls, like what exterior garage walls sit on. If the existing landscaping is quite a bit lower and sloped away enough then you are probably fine but I don't really see that happen here in the valley.

That's a lot of faith you have in a complete stranger to not get permits.

His bid states he is going to do all that, I am just trying to figure his motive for no permit. He almost got frusterated when I mentioned I had to do a permit because my neighbor is on the HOA board and I got to get it done right. He said after I get my permit he would have to rebid because it would change the scope of the work, which doesn't make sense.

[Teacher Terry]

I would find someone reputable.

[AZ Manager]

Originally Posted by ajonesaz

His bid states he is going to do all that, I am just trying to figure his motive for no permit. He almost got frusterated when I mentioned I had to do a permit because my neighbor is on the HOA board and I got to get it done right. He said after I get my permit he would have to rebid because it would change the scope of the work, which doesn't make sense.

He says that because he is a **** contractor.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by ajonesaz

His bid states he is going to do all that, I am just trying to figure his motive for no permit. He almost got frusterated when I mentioned I had to do a permit because my neighbor is on the HOA board and I got to get it done right. He said after I get my permit he would have to rebid because it would change the scope of the work, which doesn't make sense.

If you want to save a bunch of money & still do the job right & properly permitted, you should hire your own engineer/architect to produce some drawings & then you can hire anyone to make the addition look like the prints. Lots of contractors can do work that is code-compliant, but most cant or won't jump through the hoops to get the drawings produced. The ones that can "do everything for you" will charge you accordingly, and then some.

Permits are no big deal if you have drawings - and if you do have closed (finished) permits and drawings it's a feature when you sell. Part of the permit process is both a site drawing & a floor plan - both docs can be scanned into a listing if you decide to sell later.

I did a ton of work to one of my homes in Phoenix without a permit & later decided to sell. To correct the pickle I put myself in, I had drawings made by an engineer I found on Craigslist & pulled retroactive permits. The city was awesome to deal with & approval was no big deal at all, but I had to peel back the drywall to show that my work matched the drawings.

If I had known how easy it was to pull the permits first, I'd have never went that way. There was no hours long wait at the permit counter, the inspectors weren't jerks, the costs of the permits wasnt excessive.. There really wasnt any reason to fear the permit process.

[ElleTea]

Originally Posted by ajonesaz

His bid states he is going to do all that, I am just trying to figure his motive for no permit. He almost got frusterated when I mentioned I had to do a permit because my neighbor is on the HOA board and I got to get it done right. He said after I get my permit he would have to rebid because it would change the scope of the work, which doesn't make sense.

If a permit will change the bid, he is obviously taking some shortcuts sans permit and with a permit it would cost more to do the work correctly. Run far away from this guy and find someone who will do it correctly.

I had a horrible experience with an "electrician" (I use the term loosely) who was going to upgrade my breaker box when I was installing a new pool pump. He was telling me how he could do it and when I questioned him he said "oh, well if you want it to CODE, then I would have to do it differently."

If nothing else, you want it done correctly now so that you don't run into issues later when you eventually go to sell your property. An inspection could show that the work was not up to code and you may have to redo it to sell the house.