HB 2787: The bill to split Maricopa County into 4 (Phoenix, Mesa: city hall, lease)

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I tend to agree, and Gila County should also be divided into two different counties. People who live in Payson have to drive all the way to Globe if they need to conduct any kind of business with the court system. Payson is larger than Globe anyway, so it should be a county seat. It really doesn't make sense why dividing counties is so heavily opposed when other things like Legislative & Congressional districts are split and realigned every 10 years or so. Area code boundaries are split every so often, based largely on population.



I wouldn't have any problem with this. The voters should be deciding most of these matters.


Which is why the U.S. already is split up ... into STATES!
()

There’s Superior Court branch in Payson and most court proceedings are virtual/paper. Payson has a County Complex. You can do about 100% of what you can do in Globe from Payson.

What you seem to be advocating for is more government including costs. It’s a solution to a problem that is made up

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64

There’s Superior Court branch in Payson and most court proceedings are virtual/paper. Payson has a County Complex. You can do about 100% of what you can do in Globe from Payson.

What you seem to be advocating for is more government including costs. It’s a solution to a problem that is made up

If that's the case, splitting Gila County wouldn't require much in the way of additional government. Keep the existing complexes in Payson, and have it be the seat for the new county. No big deal. We already have more government when there are complexes in multiple cities/towns within the same county. I have seen absolutely no benefit to Maricopa County being the enormous size that it is. It certainly hasn't sped up or improved infrastructure projects. If anything, it causes delays & cost burdens.

[JGMotorsport64]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

If that's the case, splitting Gila County wouldn't require much in the way of additional government. Keep the existing complexes in Payson, and have it be the seat for the new county. No big deal. We already have more government when there are complexes in multiple cities/towns within the same county. I have seen absolutely no benefit to Maricopa County being the enormous size that it is. It certainly hasn't sped up or improved infrastructure projects. If anything, it causes delays & cost burdens.

But that’s the point. It would require additional government. If you have the complexes who cares what the name on the building is? What service is being created that isn’t already being met?

[caryberry]

Splitting is in the air. Scottsdale wants to divide itself into three independent voting districts. Some think it’s brilliant as South Scottsdale, Old Town and North Scottsdale have very little in common.

Old Town should support itself as it is nothing but a tourist trap.

North Scottsdale can join Paradise Valley.

South Scottsdale can stop the unbridled development and the grifters that come along for the fast money.

Splits have potential.

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I tend to agree, and Gila County should also be divided into two different counties. People who live in Payson have to drive all the way to Globe if they need to conduct any kind of business with the court system. Payson is larger than Globe anyway, so it should be a county seat. It really doesn't make sense why dividing counties is so heavily opposed when other things like Legislative & Congressional districts are split and realigned every 10 years or so. Area code boundaries are split every so often, based largely on population.



I wouldn't have any problem with this. The voters should be deciding most of these matters.



Which is why the U.S. already is split up ... into STATES!
()

And we already have city governments!

[bobsell]

Originally Posted by Goofball86

Or it just smells of Parisian politics.

Non.

Nothing to do with Paris.

[Valley Native]

What it comes down to is: when something becomes oversized, the obvious solution is reduce the size. I'm really more in favor of doing away with county governments because much of the business can be handled on a city or state level. But as long as counties remain in existence, I see no need in keeping Maricopa County the size that it is. I realize splitting the county would create additional government bodies (which goes against the principles that conservatives & Libertarians stand for), but it would reduce the amount of bureaucracy within the existing counties. It's just the right thing to do. The majority of counties which contain large metro areas have generally small land areas. Phoenix shouldn't always have to be so different from the norm.

[Prickly Pear]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

What it comes down to is: when something becomes oversized, the obvious solution is reduce the size. I'm really more in favor of doing away with county governments because much of the business can be handled on a city or state level. But as long as counties remain in existence, I see no need in keeping Maricopa County the size that it is. I realize splitting the county would create additional government bodies (which goes against the principles that conservatives & Libertarians stand for), but it would reduce the amount of bureaucracy within the existing counties. It's just the right thing to do. The majority of counties which contain large metro areas have generally small land areas. Phoenix shouldn't always have to be so different from the norm.

Has it ever occurred to you that just because something has been established as normal that it's the right thing? We'd never have bureaucracy if we were still hunter-gatherer societies, which was the "norm" for thousands of years. Someone eventually challenged that, and it turned out for the better. Racism was also considered normal and accepted, that was a belief that was challenged and frankly still changing for the better.



You have failed to make arguments that Maricopa County is too big to be managed appropriately. Your only argument really is that it's against the norm, not that it's been ineffective or mismanaged. Also it would increase bureaucracy not decrease, because it would require more top level positions (director of 4 park and rec departments now instead of 1, etc.) Since these are higher salaried positions, they will have to cut down on the worker bee, which means in order to provide the same quality of service as currently, they'd have to increase costs to cover the required top level positions over the cheaper worker bee level positions.


County is not the lowest level of government and should not be treated as such. Now if you were arguing that Phoenix area municipalities needed to decrease in size, I'd agree with you.

[FlurryCat]

The people in favor of this are also the ones who think government should be run like a business. So why aren't they calling for mergers and consolidation?

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

Has it ever occurred to you that just because something has been established as normal that it's the right thing? We'd never have bureaucracy if we were still hunter-gatherer societies, which was the "norm" for thousands of years. Someone eventually challenged that, and it turned out for the better. Racism was also considered normal and accepted, that was a belief that was challenged and frankly still changing for the better.

So what you're saying is: you're all in favor of change, but you prefer Maricopa County to remain exactly the same as it is. Interesting.
()

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

You have failed to make arguments that Maricopa County is too big to be managed appropriately. Your only argument really is that it's against the norm, not that it's been ineffective or mismanaged. Also it would increase bureaucracy not decrease, because it would require more top level positions (director of 4 park and rec departments now instead of 1, etc.) Since these are higher salaried positions, they will have to cut down on the worker bee, which means in order to provide the same quality of service as currently, they'd have to increase costs to cover the required top level positions over the cheaper worker bee level positions.

On the contrary, I have rebutted your claims that the county has effective management ... specifically your statements about Maricopa Association of Governments, and how they set "quality standards". MAG (along with ADOT) have grossly mismanaged transportation funds for the Phoenix area, and I already provided examples of this. BTW, does anybody wonder why ground hasn't been broken on the highly anticipated Interstate 11? The original 1985 freeway tax included funding for the Grand Expressway, which would have easily been an early start to I11. Grand Expressway was scrapped many years ago because ADOT & MAG didn't budget properly. So Grand Avenue remains the same as it has been for decades, which has become a trashy eyesore with long stoplights and a few ineffective overpasses, instead of the freeway which it should have been.

The point is: Maricopa County's enormous size hasn't done anything to improve infrastructure projects. If anything, it has resulted in more delays & waste. If MAG's function is standardizing infrastructure across city boundaries, this would mainly include Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs. Places like Wickenburg, Gila Bend, Tonopah, Rio Verde, Fort McDowell, and Sunflower have little to no interest in our freeway, mass transit, or stadium developments ... just as we don't have any interest in their rural way of life. Two completely separate lifestyles, which is one reason why the county should be separated.

Also, while splitting the counties would require more management jobs, they don't necessarily have to be high salaried. Costs could easily be cut by reducing the salaries of these top level positions, as well as all the extra perks they receive. Being a government employee shouldn't be a guaranteed lifetime security blanket.

Originally Posted by Prickly Pear

County is not the lowest level of government and should not be treated as such. Now if you were arguing that Phoenix area municipalities needed to decrease in size, I'd agree with you.

Yes, the city of Phoenix & many of the suburbs are also too large in area, and should be deannexed for a lot of the same reasons why Maricopa County should be condensed. Those who choose to live in far north Phoenix (Norterra, Desert Hills, etc.) likely do so because they don't want to be part of the main city. Well, I'm sorry, but those people who want to be away from Phoenix, but still live within the Phoenix city limits and accept Phoenix's city services are pure hypocrites.