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Yes, I too can lament the fact that Phoenix has deteriorated to some degree. I blame the state government to some extent but mostly the corporations that (in my opinion) own our governments anyway.
I live in Phoenix by choice as I'm semi-retired. I chose Phoenix because I was familiar with it and have friends here. I have a wonderful view apartment near the mountains and I enjoy the weather most of the time with my windows open. I don't turn on the a/c until it hits 100. I figure it makes it easier to adjust to living here than to recoil every time I feel a little hot. It's not too bad, actually.
I lived here from 85-91 then from 05-now. The changes in that timespan were not immediately noticeable but I can agree that the drivers are insane, worse than California (I lived in the Bay Area, LA, and San Diego while I was away). It is frightening to drive during rush hours. A lack of intelligence is truly just one source for the enormously stupid risk-taking Phoenix drivers are guilty of. The other thing that is different is that the city is somehow more lowbrow than before. Maybe moving from what some refer to as a higher level of culture (highly debatable!) the change is made more evident. But, really, the idea that scores of well-educated people live here is a dubious assertion.
Another change is the rampant attacks I've seen and experienced since returning. On this thread alone, you have apparent neanderthals with typing skills who want to fight you--for what? Where is this violence coming from? It must be the same violence driving our commuters to commit vehicular hari-kari on the freeways! Are we really a city (and a nation) of passive aggressive a-holes unable to adjust to the stress and willing to forgo reason to just spew venom in all directions? This is no longer a safe country and I trust this anger will eventually boil over into the streets. Let me breathe deeply now... there, better.
I do take issue with moose168's assumption that this area is not well planned however. I find the use of the land to be far more logical than the Bay Area and San Diego. Phoenix missed it's best opportunity by not growing up (vertically). A city of higher buildings would create shade and wind and allow for wonderful views. But, alas, economics would never allow a massive, mostly flat valley to develop upwards.
Also, I applaud your decision to move on and wish you well (moose168) in your new location. As much as I love where I live (and not working has made living here much more pleasant), I am now considering a much smaller and safer location. I will still promote Phoenix as a far better choice among cities to live in, but my intuition is screaming for me to consider more isolated alternatives.
Last edited by mhouse2001; 03-21-2007 at 06:47 PM..
Ah-hem, In the defense of the "neanderthals with typing skills" , moose started it by insulting everyone who lives in Phoenix. No apologies, I stand by my original post!!
Ah-hem, In the defense of the "neanderthals with typing skills" , moose started it by insulting everyone who lives in Phoenix. No apologies, I stand by my original post!!
I must admit that I didn't take anything moose168 wrote as insulting. No apologies from me, either.
Just a thought - for those who like to keep harping on the uneducated or stupidity of people in Arizona, it most likely isn't the 20% who are native Arizonans. It's the 80% of the people that moved from the Midwest, East Coast, South East and Northwest who are just a little senseless/uneducated in their own right that bring the level down for everybody.
Location: 5 miles from the center of the universe-The Superstition Mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001
Phoenix missed it's best opportunity by not growing up (vertically). A city of higher buildings would create shade and wind and allow for wonderful views. But, alas, economics would never allow a massive, mostly flat valley to develop upwards.
You can blame that on the city government. During the 60's and 70's some developers wanted to build upwards in the downtown area. The people with the authority to issue permits and/or the people who held their strings did not want Phoenix to look like one of the cities so many people here seem to long for. How the Valley National Bank Building ever went up is beyond me.
The sprawl can be attributed to the several factors, going back to the 70's and 80's. Some of those factors are:
*Land was extremely cheap (for developers) and there was a seemingly endless supply of it.
*There wasn't much of a tax base in Arizona, and selling off land cheap brought in bodies.
*Land was sold even cheaper to big businesses so those bodies had a place to work. - Now the state practically gives the land to the businesses and convinces the tax payers to pay for their buildings (Cardinals and D-back playgrounds, for example).
*The mass migration to this area which became a flood in the 80's.
*Builders used to only put two homes in the same area they now squeeze three into.
*The American dream of owning your own home (not condos and townhouses and whatever they call those ugly narrow boxes in places back east like Philly) and raising your 2.3 children was available here at an affordable price.
I apolojiz, upalagiz,...I'm sorry if I didn't use n-e of those big words. I never lurnd how to use a dikshunery. They din't teech that in skool heer wen I was yung.
I'm a new member to the board, but not new to the valley. I was born in Phoenix, grew up here. I remember when cotton fields dominated the landscape, when I-17 was completed - it was simply called Black Canyon Highway back then. Wallace and Ladmo, cruising on Central, Legend City - the good old days.
I moved to San Jose California in the mid-'80s to pursue my career path. I recently moved back to the valley to care for my mother who is unable to care for herself. Things have sure changed, sorry to say for the worst.
Phoenix has gone from being a small friendly city to an oversized, unfriendly, spread-out suburb of nothing.
It's funny that you say this as since I've been researching Phoenix, I have found these words of yours to be accurate. It appears that Phoenix was created as a place that had some of the amentities and entertainment of a city, but without the problems of a city. This has clearly failed as the crime and pollution of Phoenix is worse than most of the large cities in the US.
The place was obviously not designed for such growth, so therefore an urban culture was never created, and new suburbs and strip malls have simply been added to the end to create a massive suburb without an urban culture. I think the lack of initial foresight and planning also explains the reason that there are ghetto areas mixed in throughout the entire metropolitan area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill Warner
I think S.F is an arm pit, third world cesspool now.
San Francisco has actually been rated, along with Honolulu, as the highest rated most liveable American city in the world city rankings. Phoenix rated extremely poorly. Of course there are going to be people though that don't like San Francisco, but for the majority of people, there is no doubt that San Francisco is long way ahead of Phoenix as a quality city and that Phoenix would be at the cesspool end, as it is in the quality city survey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aj661
I apolojiz, upalagiz,...I'm sorry if I didn't use n-e of those big words. I never lurnd how to use a dikshunery. They din't teech that in skool heer wen I was yung.
That reminds me. I noticed on here that Arizona is the 50th smartest state as can be seen on the link below.
Just a thought - for those who like to keep harping on the uneducated or stupidity of people in Arizona, it most likely isn't the 20% who are native Arizonans. It's the 80% of the people that moved from the Midwest, East Coast, South East and Northwest who are just a little senseless/uneducated in their own right that bring the level down for everybody.
I think that makes some sense. Most of those who have moved here moved here to 'get rich' like so many others in Southern California and, especially, Las Vegas. There's probably no difference between what happens here and what happens in third world countries: the cities are inundated with poorer (and by extension, less educated) people from the rural areas. This results in an extensive desperate working class that ultimately diminishes the city altogether. Well, either that, or it's the effect of the heat on those brains that are unaccustomed to 100 days over 100 degrees!
It's funny that you say this as since I've been researching Phoenix, I have found these words of yours to be accurate. It appears that Phoenix was created as a place that had some of the amentities and entertainment of a city, but without the problems of a city. This has clearly failed as the crime and pollution of Phoenix is worse than most of the large cities in the US.
The place was obviously not designed for such growth, so therefore an urban culture was never created, and new suburbs and strip malls have simply been added to the end to create a massive suburb without an urban culture. I think the lack of initial foresight and planning also explains the reason that there are ghetto areas mixed in throughout the entire metropolitan area.That reminds me. I noticed on here that Arizona is the 50th smartest state as can be seen on the link below.
I would blame the lack of cultural development and the pollution firstly on the physical geography of the city. With no true definition, sprawl was invented for places like Phoenix. There's no stopping it because the geography puts up no limits to growth. The pollution isn't so much due to a lack of planning, but rather the geography yet again. The lack of wind, the prevalence of inversions, and the sheer volume of dust here makes for bad air pollution. Although, I think some of the areas I grew up in (South Side of Chicago, Houston, most of the LA basin) are exponentially worse in air pollution.
Secondly, this type of city design fails miserably in creating any kind of unified identity or distinct culture. Again I blame the geography and economics. Yes, greed wins out all the time. With no end to the amount of land, there was no way for anyone to say "Stop! Let's think about what kind of city we're developing!" and live to tell about it. Every successful city has a center and something (usually geographic) which defines it. Phoenix has a river with no water and mountains spread 20-60 miles apart. Nope, no true "city" would ever flourish here without divine intervention.
It's sad, but I wish the growth had taken place much slower, slow enough for the people here to adequately survey the direction the growth COULD take and take the necessary steps to guide it. Any urban area that cannot be easily defined in the consciousness of its citizens doesn't really exist in the first place. Phoenix isn't alone in this regard. I'm not attacking my city, just thinking critically about it how it could have been better.
With no end to the amount of land, there was no way for anyone to say "Stop! Let's think about what kind of city we're developing!" and live to tell about it. Every successful city has a center and something (usually geographic) which defines it. Phoenix has a river with no water and mountains spread 20-60 miles apart. Nope, no true "city" would ever flourish here without divine intervention.
Actually, there was a way for someone to say "Stop!". It was proposed a few years back that a boundry be put in place to limit the city from growing further out. As you can guess, it was shot down fairly quick.
Other cities, such as Portland, have actually put boundries and what happened? People had no choice but to redevelop areas and build up.
Hell look at Tempe. It's landlocked on all sides, it can't sprawl out like Phoenix. Is it a coincidence that they have the most vibrant and walkable downtown in the Phoenix metro area and that their downtown is flurishing right now with project after project going up...while Phoenix struggles to get things off the drawing board.
Robin Holland - Be carefull when you use all these different data sources to quote most livable american city as they are based on very limited or skewed criteria.
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